PC2 Resolved Ginetta Challenge Race 4 - Turn 1 Heroes (1 Viewer)

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Date: 21.06.2018
Event: Ginetta Challenge Race 4
Members Involved: @Eugene Flerko @Taorminator @Jaco P. @Jonno
Description: Not much to say, videos beneath
Evidence:

Race 1 - Lap 1 - Turn 1 - Crash 1 - Eugene Flerko

Race 1 Restart - Lap 1 - Turn 1 - Crash 2 - TaoDue

Race 2 - Lap 1 - Turn 1 - Crash 1 - Jaco P.

Race 2 - Lap 1 - Turn 1 - Crash 2 - Jonno

Race 2 - Lap 1 - Turn 1 - Overview


What really makes me question myself, after my rant at all of you guys (which makes me actually sick doing it, I really feel like a piece of shit doing that) both restarts of race 1 and 2 were very clean. Race 2 I watched through the complete field for the first lap of the restart and there were no accidents at all!


Race 2 Restart - Why not the first time?!

Race 2 - Close racing is possible!


@fab. ICEMAN @Shepard @Mark @CatchAGlimpse @Puffpirat @Jaco P. @Raigore @Ranjanado @steveg200 @t0daY @Darksi @Taorminator @Battenberg @Eugene Flerko @Nada @Alex Salmon @Eugene Gajkin @The Breeze @Yammie916 @Jonno @kaleeb42 @AndrexUK @kobusnell @Gosku @Mearcat @Cornworld @1185323118 @Erik @Born2BSlow @Stokemon @King-Kodiak @Jesper Ramsberg
 

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Any comments?
 

1185323118

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I've done everything I could have done myself to prevent it from happen.
 

Jaco P.

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Well regarding my crash it begun when Jonno bumped me off the track when I was taking T1 very conservatively but after that I really made a mistake when rejoining the track..really sorry for that.
From my cockpit view it seemed that there is nobody on my right but in fact there was somebody in my blind spot. Unfortunately the contact ended very dramatically..
 

Born2BSlow

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Don’t know what else I could have done, race 1 1st start totally clean at t1 but everything kicked off behind, 2nd start I went from 4th to 30th, completely rolled the car at T1 after the contact from behind, I was expecting another restart...in the 2nd race people were allowed to pit to fix their cars and the race restarted. I came back to redeem myself after R2 Oulton Park incidents. Glad I was included in the close racing clip, that was an epic 5 way battle ... sadly that didn’t last as I ended up off track due to contact later in the lap. It’s a shame, I do like default setup slower car racing, but it’s not going well for me at the moment.

@t0daY I’m not sure you have the right sequence of events, I was punted off at T1 in your second video at the race 1 restart...the clean restart video is race 2. I spoiled that by outbraking myself into the chicane on the first 2 laps.
 
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Jonno

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The bump with jaco was caused by the other car bumping me first they decided to turn in late leaving me no option but to go for a wider turn it was unfortunate tap myself and jaco had but i cant be blamed for a track rejoin crash.
My bump on nada the replay realy dont do it justice as i stated the other night in my cockpit i was going straight and it felt like i got tagged in the rear by nada if i was in the wrong id be the first to admit it was my fault i will look at the reply tonight and if it js my fault i will happly take any punishment no matter how hard it is if an example needs to be made then im your man..
 

kobusnell

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I think the blind first corner made thing difficult in the first race. It is the first corner, yes, and you should be extra careful, yes. I was bumped in a similar manner in the second race, in the middle of the race, at the entry of Les Combes. I was being overtaken, and a car came from way back and hit me in the corner, spinning my off the track. The point I'm trying to make is it was probably a larger speed difference, larger impact, but the effect it had on everyone's race was very small, As I was the only one that lost places.

I think the blind first corner had a major impact. If you look at the crash, and the car movements directly after the crash, you'll see Eugene had to move left to avoid Steve. I am the light blue car at 0:09, trying to avoid the car that is trying to avoid Eugene. I remember being pushed wide, trying to slow down to minimize the chances of driving into someone else's line, but it happens to fast, and you are a passenger. I also think having a wider FOV might have helped me, or having VR with the ability to easily look around me, but again, it happens so fast.

Seeing as we do a rolling start, is starting from another location with better visibility an option? I was thinking that in PCARS1 the starting line is in the run up to Eau Rouge. It's not that much better, if someone loses it it is at high speed, but visibility might be better? I don't know...

In the first Ginetta race I was pushed off the track on the first lap, and stood and looked as everyone drove by, because at a race start there is no way to rejoin safely. Like Romain Grosjean should have done in Barcelona, if you lose is, wait for everyone to pass. Your livelihood doesn't depend on it, wait for everyone to go past and race with the back markers. It's not that bad ;) But I'd suggest a rule saying that if you leave the track in the first corner wait for the pack to pass, which should be implied through the rules, but I think it is difficult to keep to it.

Except for the first first race start, where I went from 13th to 29th due to the accident, I had a lot of fun, and mostly clean racing. I don't know how to be more careful in the first corner without being dangerously slow. Especially when you have cars close to you on both sides, and behind you.

And I agree with @Born2BSlow, the clean restart was the second race. Due to the first race I started high up, on the outside, and I recall taking the widest line I could, and in the video I look like an orphan, on my own on the outside. The other starts I was on the inside, and with the wall there there's nowhere to go.
 

t0daY

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that's a formality of this was race 1 or 2 restart. It is more about the fact that It was super clean compared to the first tries in each race.
 

Eugene Flerko

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Yes, the first crash of the R1 is completely on me. I feel so ashamed for this incident as it messed the first start for so many pilots on track. Following Steve I should've brake much harder before t1 instead of avoiding Steve on the right side. Of course in such a tight hairpin I had no chance to avoid bumping him. I underestimated my speed and as a result I divebombed into Steve and turned him around.

As for the race 2 I'd like to report myself for leaving the session before its end. I was so frustrated with huge amount of damages my car received from a single incident (engine 89!, back - 43, front - 30, front suspension - 4 and 18, back suspension - 0 and 23) and my car didn't want to start moving, so I was forced to retire to pits and then left the session. Luckily for remaining drivers it was new formation lap and there were no server issues that could affect anyone's race.
 

Born2BSlow

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that's a formality of this was race 1 or 2 restart. It is more about the fact that It was super clean compared to the first tries in each race.
Probably because you read the riot act and rather than the usual "white rabbit" approach to T1 everyone was cautious...

Have you thought about running a licence/points system to dissuade people from being too aggressive/causing incidents. There are some intelligent peeps here who "for sure" could come up with something that might help. It can never be 100% fixed because there are no real consequences, but if people are staring at a ban maybe they'd think twice.
 

CatchAGlimpse

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Have you thought about running a licence/points system to dissuade people from being too aggressive/causing incidents.
Pretty sure this already exists.

I was gutted about Race 2 when the incident with Jonno happened which caused about 5 cars to crash which I could not avoid (no idea who is to blame and I'm over it, its only a game!) Shame it maybe cost me the 3rd place in the championship.
 

t0daY

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Probably because you read the riot act and rather than the usual "white rabbit" approach to T1 everyone was cautious...

Have you thought about running a licence/points system to dissuade people from being too aggressive/causing incidents. There are some intelligent peeps here who "for sure" could come up with something that might help. It can never be 100% fixed because there are no real consequences, but if people are staring at a ban maybe they'd think twice.
Pretty sure this already exists.

I was gutted about Race 2 when the incident with Jonno happened which caused about 5 cars to crash which I could not avoid (no idea who is to blame and I'm over it, its only a game!) Shame it maybe cost me the 3rd place in the championship.
It does indeed:
https://revolutionsimracing.com/threads/rsr-license-system.1216/
 

Born2BSlow

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OK then... , I do remember reading that when I joined now you mention it...I'm going to blame my age for that faux pas.
 

AndrexUK

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Race starts / T1 on Lap 1 / etc are always a minefield :(
It's in everyone nature as a racer to try to gain places, and the first corner is likely to be the easiest place to gain from other people being slow.
But, it really boils my blood when you are being safe and braking early to give a safe space in front, and you get someone just firing up the inside and taking away that safe gap you have left in case something happens in front.
I know it's natural to try to take advantage of other ppl going slow, but the risk is too high.
It's very selfish to just chuck your car up the inside of someone just because you are not being as considerate as others.
There is a very good chance the car directly in front of you will be braking early, and you charge into the back of him. And it's just not right to be causing damage to others and affecting their race on the first corner. (and that's if it doesn't snowball onto multiple other drivers as well...)

For me (apart from Le-Mans, but it's VERY close) it doesn't get much better than single make (The slower the better!) default racing! With things like the Ginetta GT5, everyone can drive it, and since the skill required is not AS high, the slower drivers don't suffer by being off the pace as much as in other cars. This creates awesome close racing on the track, and there will almost always be someone very close to race with.

I'd missed the previous rounds (And seriously kicking myself for that!) and was really looking forward to this event!
But I had rather large concerns after watching King-Kodiak's race at Brands Hatch. Some of the driving standards were at public lobby level and that is far from what I have come to expect in RSR!
I was just hoping that it was a 'blip' and that Spa would provide some more great racing...
However, I just get the feeling that a lot of drivers are being overly aggressive on the track, and not willing to back down, which seams to be more often than not, leading to unnecessary contact.

At this point, I would like to apologize for how I reacted to being taken out. This was largely due to frustration (mostly because a potential awesome race was cut short, but also because we had finally managed to survive lap 1, and then got dumped on lap 2 instead...), But again, sorry for the frustrations getting the better of me :(

Again, I know we are here to race, but we join leagues to get away from the wreckfest public lobbies - no one wants that cancer to start infecting league racing!

The solution is a rather simple one. And it's not from changing any rules / etc from the league / RSR side.
It's down to the drivers (everyone) just having respect for the fellow RSR racers you share the track with.
A lot of it comes down to experience, and there is different levels within RSR (100% natural), but if people are not able to drive close to others, then the racing quickly becomes frustrating.

We all need to be able to decide on 'Risk V Reward' when we are trying for a pass.
And personally, the reward for gaining a place is a lot lower than the risk of taking someone (or even just yourself) out.

I saw a couple of times ppl going 2 wide through Au-Rouge... Yes, these cars are probably easier to drive than the faster cars, and it is indeed more POSSIBLE to go through side-by-side. but just because it's POSSIBLE, doesn't mean you SHOULD!

Don't be afraid to drop a position (there is a good chance you'll get it back later anyway) rather than risk contact.

I'm not saying "Don't race anyone!" but we all have the right to be on the track, and no one has the right to bump ppl off it!
Treat other drivers how YOU want to be treated.
Yes, Accidents happen, but it's amazing how many can be avoided, just by playing safe!
You will most likely find that you end up finishing high up, when you don't end up spinning out / picking up damage!
(It's worked very well for me - I don't have the out-right pace of the front guys, yet I tend to finish not too far away from them!)

Essentially, it comes down to having as much respect for the other guys around you as you possibly can.
Lets leave the silly bumps in the public lobbies.
 

Born2BSlow

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Good post @AndrexUK
I would add, recognise your own limitations and don't try to prove you're better than you are by over driving. There is a lot of pleasure and enjoyment to be had having a 20 lap close battle for 15th, at least for me. Only one person can get P1 and it's not always going to be you, accept that and give your best, your day will come.
 

AndrexUK

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100%
Some of the most fun racing I've had is at the back end of the grid!
 

Cluck

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Know

Your

Limits


The first step to becoming a better driver - not faster, just better - is to recognise your own abilities and, just as importantly, your own failings. Accept fault for a mistake that is yours, instead of blaming others and then, most crucially, learn from those mistakes. We all make mistakes but it is how we deal with them that matters, that is what defines us in the eyes of others.

Staff hat on for a moment

Do not forget that we have members streaming some of our races. If you were watching last night's race, as somebody that had heard great things about us, would you still join? Next time you try to be a turn 1 hero, think about that. Sadly, I feel this will be quickly forgotten by many, given that we went through this after the first race in Season 4 of the Revolution Cup, just 3 months ago :(. Please, everybody, understand that actions like last night - and, if I'm honest, some of the responses to it - do not exactly engender a warm spirit and encourage us all to race again.

Staff hat off
 

Taorminator

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@t0daY & @Born2BSlow at first I was very surprised to see this incident as I didn't remember any of it! Indeed I remember I experienced a desync at the restart of race 1 and from my POV there was no contact with anyone (you can see it in my replay, I can prove it when I'll upload it). During the desync I purposedly took the wide line as there was at that time nobody to my left hand side to minimize the chance of hitting anybody and got out of it just fine. I am really sorry this happened I thought the incident was caused behind. Sorry for having ruined your race @Born2BSlow but there was nothing I could do, it was a technical problem :(
 

Taorminator

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Race starts / T1 on Lap 1 / etc are always a minefield :(
It's in everyone nature as a racer to try to gain places, and the first corner is likely to be the easiest place to gain from other people being slow.
But, it really boils my blood when you are being safe and braking early to give a safe space in front, and you get someone just firing up the inside and taking away that safe gap you have left in case something happens in front.
I know it's natural to try to take advantage of other ppl going slow, but the risk is too high.
It's very selfish to just chuck your car up the inside of someone just because you are not being as considerate as others.
There is a very good chance the car directly in front of you will be braking early, and you charge into the back of him. And it's just not right to be causing damage to others and affecting their race on the first corner. (and that's if it doesn't snowball onto multiple other drivers as well...)

For me (apart from Le-Mans, but it's VERY close) it doesn't get much better than single make (The slower the better!) default racing! With things like the Ginetta GT5, everyone can drive it, and since the skill required is not AS high, the slower drivers don't suffer by being off the pace as much as in other cars. This creates awesome close racing on the track, and there will almost always be someone very close to race with.

I'd missed the previous rounds (And seriously kicking myself for that!) and was really looking forward to this event!
But I had rather large concerns after watching King-Kodiak's race at Brands Hatch. Some of the driving standards were at public lobby level and that is far from what I have come to expect in RSR!
I was just hoping that it was a 'blip' and that Spa would provide some more great racing...
However, I just get the feeling that a lot of drivers are being overly aggressive on the track, and not willing to back down, which seams to be more often than not, leading to unnecessary contact.

At this point, I would like to apologize for how I reacted to being taken out. This was largely due to frustration (mostly because a potential awesome race was cut short, but also because we had finally managed to survive lap 1, and then got dumped on lap 2 instead...), But again, sorry for the frustrations getting the better of me :(

Again, I know we are here to race, but we join leagues to get away from the wreckfest public lobbies - no one wants that cancer to start infecting league racing!

The solution is a rather simple one. And it's not from changing any rules / etc from the league / RSR side.
It's down to the drivers (everyone) just having respect for the fellow RSR racers you share the track with.
A lot of it comes down to experience, and there is different levels within RSR (100% natural), but if people are not able to drive close to others, then the racing quickly becomes frustrating.

We all need to be able to decide on 'Risk V Reward' when we are trying for a pass.
And personally, the reward for gaining a place is a lot lower than the risk of taking someone (or even just yourself) out.

I saw a couple of times ppl going 2 wide through Au-Rouge... Yes, these cars are probably easier to drive than the faster cars, and it is indeed more POSSIBLE to go through side-by-side. but just because it's POSSIBLE, doesn't mean you SHOULD!

Don't be afraid to drop a position (there is a good chance you'll get it back later anyway) rather than risk contact.

I'm not saying "Don't race anyone!" but we all have the right to be on the track, and no one has the right to bump ppl off it!
Treat other drivers how YOU want to be treated.
Yes, Accidents happen, but it's amazing how many can be avoided, just by playing safe!
You will most likely find that you end up finishing high up, when you don't end up spinning out / picking up damage!
(It's worked very well for me - I don't have the out-right pace of the front guys, yet I tend to finish not too far away from them!)

Essentially, it comes down to having as much respect for the other guys around you as you possibly can.
Lets leave the silly bumps in the public lobbies.
Hey @AndrexUK . I'm glad to read this because I know that frustration was aimed at me. Thank you for these words and I agree 100% with you. As you manifested respect by apologizing for your reaction I feel I also owe you respect and explain what happened from my POV. I just want to show you that there is two sides of the story. After reviewing the replay this is what I can tell and please don't take any of it personnally I just want to describe respectfully how it was for me :

The tension started when you squeezed between @CatchAGlimpse and I in the straight, we were two wide fighting for position and you bumped me to get in the middle approaching a dangerous braking zone. Nice move but too risky and not very respectful from my POV. To prove I don't want to bash you I admit I didn't left enough room to @CatchAGlimpse right after that. The same lap, I catched up with you and was fully alongside you in Blanchimont. Instead of going for the apex as expected you stayed something like the middle of the track and turned in much later than usual and bumped me off track. No consequences for you, I ran wide, needed a new underpant, again not very fair from my POV... After rejoining I still have the inside and as you braked earlier (I also braked earlier than my usual braking reference to avoid locking up) I passed on the inside. I ran a bit wide and had contact with @Battemberg whom I didn't expect to be there. I agree the second contact with him is 100% on me as I didn't leave space and turned into him. In all honnesty my situational awareness was confused at that very moment, Crew Chief said "You're clear", I didn't fully realised I was not alone until it was too late. It seems you were a collateral victim of that incident as some others.

I understand your reaction in the heat of the situation and again I just want to analyse here, not blaming you, if you have another POV I'd be more than happy to hear it and learn from it. I have also responsibility here and I don't wanna get away from it. I have no problem with driving tough but escalation in risky situations makes you more and more confused and vulnerable to tunnel vision. I think the final event is a consequence of the previous dangerous situations.

I hope to continue racing with you in a friendly and fair mindset, it's not worth being upset :) looking forward for the next battle with you!
 

Taorminator

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@steveg200 congrats on that crazy overtake in the clean close racing video! :D You really got me at that braking zone!
 
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