Assetto Corsa Pre-Season #1: Silverstone (1 Viewer)

Pre-Season #1: Silverstone
Posted by t0daY
Assetto Corsa
Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 19:30
Until: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 - 22:59
(Adjusted for timezone: Europe/London)

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hinesy32

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I would like to add that I liked no ABS. Added an extra element to the driving. Going into Stowe at nearly 170mph over the braking bumps in the braking zone was pretty cool, when too much pressure would lock the wheels.
 

Diluvian

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Nah, I drove them really hard and still noticed nothing suspicious... This is why I don't get the whole fuzz around them...
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I think that's exactly part of the discussion, some people already have the driving style which suites perfectly with the car, others would have to adapt the driving style which takes more time. But seriously, in competition it's either the best prepared (lot of practice) or the most talented one who has the highest chances to win. I don't get the argument that people with a lot of time can practice more. Someone who spent a lot of time in practice deserves a higher chance of win? :)
 

Battenberg

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That was much better than I anticipated! Here's my video & timestamps:
13:07 - Race 1 Start. Up 6 places to P4 by turn 4! Early battle with Miagi for P3.
16:34 - Up to P3, contact at Vale, but I stay in P3.
20:16 - I have a little moment at Stowe and lose a place. Down to P4.
22:45 - Freebie! Up to P3.
24:53 - Battle with Exited.
30:50 - Another freebie! Up to P2.
32:52 - Up to P1! Around the outside of Alex no less!
32:43 - Back to P2, Alex repays the favour.
38:32 - A tiny bit too eager on the throttle at Vale, down to P3.
53:15 - Race 2 start. Lots of action, ultimately in P9 by the end of the lap.
55:48 - Up to P8, after a dodgy bit of rubber banding.
57:14 - A little unplanned excursion.
1:00:52 - Up to P7.
1:10:03 - Freebie number 3! Up to P6.
1:10:53 - Caught up to the battle for P4.
1:11:48 - Overtaking 2 cars in 2 corners, Up to P4! Head down and drive to the flag.

I had done some small sessions with the car before and never clicked with it, but with some decent tyre pressures (thanks @Alex Salmon!) and the Diff Coast increased I found the default setup to be very raceable with the medium tyres. Maybe I hadn't practiced enough to be able to get on my ultimate pace straight away, but going off what the others are saying about the tyres, I guess I managed them very well without much of a conscious effort! I was able to push when needed, and didn't suffer any odd effects. The only moments I had were by my own mistake, either touching white lines under braking, or just a tiny bit too eager on the power in slow speed corners. Also, I was able to catch up to cars fighting ahead as they overheated their tyres, allowing me to pounce on them with my healthier ones, which bodes well for an interesting season. The mediums were ok for me (I actually thought I had hards on...), so I can't speak for the hards - but having just 1 tyre compound would make everyone's life simpler. Just not sure which one I would suggest.

Driving aids are a bit of a double edged sword. I personally would be 100% happy to have them forced off, as like some others have said not having tc or abs is what this car is about, and having them on will spoil the driving experience, as the consequence of being competitive. But being pragmatic and thinking of the wider community (and all skill levels), maybe a concession needs to be made to help soften the edges of the car? That being said, all the cars I was running with last night didn't have a problem, and I didn't hear anyone bemoaning the lack of driving aids, so maybe it's a non issue. Did any guys further back have any issues with the aids turned off last night?

As for the setup, my gut says keep it open, with obvious performance enhancing settings locked (gear ratios, just 1 tyre compound, cooling). Reducing the 'resolution' or steps in the super detailed areas could benefit us, and seemed to be popular in the previous season; but I'm not sure about closing off whole areas (like alignment, dampers, differential), as everyone has a different approach to improving the driveability of their car. For example, I normally go for the diff for corner entry stability.

Another approach to making the setup screen less daunting would be to make available baseline setups in the resources area for people to use as a starting point. More community engagement is always great to see on the forums. I'm not suggesting that everyone has to make their race setups public, as some people will want to keep their competitive edge to themselves (and rightly so), but it would be a good opportunity for our more open and knowledgeable members to share with the community their tips and approaches so we can all learn off each other. This way we could keep the setup open for the tweakers, and provide some instant options for those who don't have the time/knowledge/patience to make their own. Maybe we can encourage this community participation with some sort of MVP award or something?

All in all: I'm loving the car; the racing is good; the tyres are fine (just need to adjust to them); share your setups!
 

miagi

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Regarding tires, this is taken from IRL F3.
View attachment 7649

And this is taken from the guy who made the RSS Formula 3 mod.
View attachment 7650
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But they are not F1 tires? These are F3 tires. :)
70°C is too low. Our Formula Student Slick Tire is the softest compound that can be processed by Hoosier and is particularly made to have a low temperatur working window because we are not allowed tire heating and a AutoX Stage is just 1-2 Minutes long and the tire basically needs to work right away. Our cars are very light 269 kg and below with driver so the forces on the rubber are smaller than on a F4 or F3 racing car. Our temperature window goes up to 75°C where the tire starts to smear around more.
Nah, I drove them really hard and still noticed nothing suspicious... This is why I don't get the whole fuzz around them...
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When you were right behind me in the 2nd race I noticed some suspicious :p
 

Battenberg

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But seriously, in competition it's either the best prepared (lot of practice) or the most talented one who has the highest chances to win. I don't get the argument that people with a lot of time can practice more. Someone who spent a lot of time in practice deserves a higher chance of win? :)
Yep, no doubt from me that those who put the time in and have the talent will always rise to the top. What we don't want is to see people arriving for race 1 initially feeling excited for the season, qualify many seconds off the pace, retire from the race out of frustration, and then not turn up for the rest of the season because they feel alienated. A little helping hand to the back shouldn't hinder the front.
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70°C is too low...
What track temp were we running yesterday? Would setting it lower throughout the season help?
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...Just checked my stream (how handy), it was 25 C.
 
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Exited

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I think that's exactly part of the discussion, some people already have the driving style which suites perfectly with the car, others would have to adapt the driving style which takes more time. But seriously, in competition it's either the best prepared (lot of practice) or the most talented one who has the highest chances to win. I don't get the argument that people with a lot of time can practice more. Someone who spent a lot of time in practice deserves a higher chance of win? :)
Sorry, don't get the last part of your text. Who did say that you deserve a higher chance of winning when you practice more? You will have a higher chance of winning, because you know the car and track by heart, but when there is someone with more talent you will probably loose.

70°C is too low. Our Formula Student Slick Tire is the softest compound that can be processed by Hoosier and is particularly made to have a low temperatur working window because we are not allowed tire heating and a AutoX Stage is just 1-2 Minutes long and the tire basically needs to work right away. Our cars are very light 269 kg and below with driver so the forces on the rubber are smaller than on a F4 or F3 racing car. Our temperature window goes up to 75°C where the tire starts to smear around more.

When you were right behind me in the 2nd race I noticed some suspicious :p
Wouldn't focus on race 2 as I had a massive crash in L1 and were driving with red front and rear wing the whole race ;-) out of interest, what did you notice? :)
 

miagi

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Yep, no doubt from me that those who put the time in and have the talent will always rise to the top. What we don't want is to see people arriving for race 1 initially feeling excited for the season, qualify many seconds off the pace, retire from the race out of frustration, and then not turn up for the rest of the season because they feel alienated. A little helping hand to the back shouldn't hinder the front.
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What you are really saying here is that if we have closed setup like in the ginetta were default setup was king, and Jetpistol destroys the field in R1, it's okay because the setup can't be the factor but if we had open setup it would have been not okay because ?
Can't follow the argument.
Add: Imo we hould not focus on the onces that retire but on the once that stay and show dedication. If you try to make it best siutable for the once that retired on you in the past, you will only lose some of the dedicated ppl.
What track temp were we running yesterday? Would setting it lower throughout the season help?

...Just checked my stream (how handy), it was 25 C.
Fixing tire issues by making the track colder will only make the tire temperatures fluctuate more over a lap. And they already are shifting around like creazy with this car/tire. And with that the tire pressure can also be really wild over one lap with +1,5 psi for a drift or lock up, that is wild.

ADD: 25°C is already rather cold for a track in the usual racing calender window.
 
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miagi

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I meant if they were many seconds off the pace from the rest of the field, rather than the leader. Sorry I should have been clearer.
Okay, there are cases were for example the default aero is like driving with a parachute and you're not competitive. But testing that out takes like 0,5h to 1h, and if someone is not willing to put that amount of practice into a Cup race, than I would argue that cup races are not for him to be competitive at.
 

Noztra

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Fixing tire issues by making the track colder will only make the tire temperatures fluctuate more over a lap. And they already are shifting around like creazy with this car/tire. And with that the tire pressure can also be really wild over one lap with +1,5 psi for a drift or lock up, that is wild.
What tire issue?

The tires are deliberate made to fluctuate. The surface temps can go up/down very fast depending on the load on the tire, but the core temps pretty much stay the same. That's why you can't go mental in every corner, because the temps will stay high.

Isn't this the case like in S1, where one person doesn't like something and then we change it, and then everyone else have to adapt? Because by the sound of it in this thread nobody really to have tires issues and most people seem to enjoy the challenge, except you?

This is not meant to be an attack or anything on you @miagi and it might be poor formulated, but I don't see the reason why we should change it?
 
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miagi

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What tire issue?

The tires are deliberate made to fluctuate. The surface temps can go up/down very fast depending on the load on the tire, but the core temps pretty much stay the same. That's why you can't go mental in every corner, because the temps will stay high.

Isn't this the case like in S1, where one person doesn't like something and then we change it, and then everyone else have to adapt? Because by the sound of it in this thread nobody really to have tires issues and most people seem to enjoy the challenge, except you?

This is not meant to be an attack or anything on you @miagi and it might be poor formulated, but I don't see the reason why we should change it?
The tire surface temp going up and down quickly is not about a tire it's the effect of friction. The issue is the impact of the surface temp on the Performance of the tire, the heat conductivity of the tire and the imidiat effect on tire pressure the surface heat has. Rubber is an Isolator, to get such an impact from surface heat, the conductivity would need to be like Aluminium.

Not sure what we have changed in S1, as far as I remember I offered something but it was not used.
 

Exited

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The tire surface temp going up and down quickly is not about a tire it's the effect of friction. The issue is the impact of the surface temp on the Performance of the tire, the heat conductivity of the tire and the imidiat effect on tire pressure the surface heat has. Rubber is an Isolator, to get such an impact from surface heat, the conductivity would need to be like Aluminium.

Not sure what we have changed in S1, as far as I remember I offered something but it was not used.
I understand your physical standpoint and the influence of surface heat to tire pressure is probably really off, because the core temperature should make a much bigger influence to the pressure and this stays pretty much constant through a lap.
BUT the other question is, yes physics might be off in some areas, but does this make to car undriveable or unpredictable? From my POV a big no. You will spin if you drive too aggressive or if your right foot is clumsy, but it is not like you are almost always close to spin or that you can't ride kerbs with the car.

We did a whole test race with your updated tires after the season, but then it was decided to not use the DTMs again.
 

Alex Salmon

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Hi guys thanks for the race last night It was a good laugh.

The car for me is good but there's definitely room for improvement in my eyes as we touched upon after last night in TS and many of you have already pointed out here :)

Tires
Personally I got very frustrated at the tires during practice and the race simply due to this 'flash heat' you experience after more than 1-2 push laps I found myself working around the tires constantly in the set up and with how I drove, you cant drive at more than 90% the cars capabilities without it snapping after 2 laps and this is worse in dirty air as I found in race 2 where I literally couldn't get a run on puffi due to it. As I said after the race for me these 30 mins races should be driving at 100% for the duration of the race and battling rather than coasting and saving tires for the whole thing, If you want to save tyres go and do 3 hours in an endurance race on the same set of boots rather than cruise round in a sprint race. I understand a few are saying its like real life but actually its a Bi-product of the Hi-Deg pirelli rubber and not the purpose. There is actually plans to move away from it by FOM for the exact issues of temp and how it effects racing.

We spoke last night about a solution and I think a couple potentials came up that we could consider.
  • Limiting set up to force hards - This would mean that we wouldn't have to set up the car around the tires and nobody would have a set up advantage by being able to run softs all race. It would be the same for everyone and balance the field better as we would all get the same.
  • taking tires off an existing car - @Battenberg mentioned this and it could be that we can use the f2 rubber or that of the old f3 to give us something more resilient for pushing hard and battling
  • Finally miagis tweaks - I think this explains itself in Miagis posts but it might be an option. Although with this and #2 I would have some concerns about it breaking something else pcars style :D
TC & ABS
I want driving aids to stay off as its more challenging and tactical making you really have to think about how you drive. I found s1 and s2 you could be a bit scuffy and get away with it whereas here its really important to be smooth. This will also help everyones driving improve I think as they will have to learn to no mash the pedals. (from a stewards pov it might stop incidents in the future through clumsy driving)

Setup
@miagi and I had a debate about this last night and I'm still convinced fully open isn't the solution. I think its too time consuming going through setups and in all honesty I dont think this series is about car setup. its about the racing. I don't think the majority of drivers want to spend the time and effort going through all the parameters tbh.. I think a little more open that s2 is good but not fully open.
I would allow for:
  • Tire pressure
  • Braking
  • Areo
  • Camber (limited options maybe every 5 degrees)
  • Springs
  • ARBs (limited options)
  • Ride Height (3 clicks up and down)
  • Diff (10% up and down?) maybe a bit more
My reason is just to limit the amount of time consuming setting up that and open set up leads too, not everyone has time to test. Again we have to look at what this season is for and not who makes the best setup in my opinion. Its about close racing and my worry is we will loose that if people can't put the same amount of set up as others.

I do like the idea of encouraging set up sharing but I don't think we can rely on it to keep everyone in the same boat. Hence the help of the limited set up.

Just my thoughts but overall im pretty excited for this season :D
 

hinesy32

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after more than 1-2 push laps I found myself working around the tires constantly in the set up and with how I drove, you cant drive at more than 90% the cars capabilities without it snapping after 2 laps and this is worse in dirty air as I found in race 2 where I literally couldn't get a run on puffi due to it. As I said after the race for me these 30 mins races should be driving at 100% for the duration of the race and battling rather than coasting and saving tires for the whole thing
Hang on, isn't that exactly what the official statement on the tyre model on these cars trying to achieve? Tyre management? I'm far from an expert, but not being able to stay close is an obvious problem, certainly in F1. Yea I'm sure the tyre contributes, but I'm guessing that turbulent air is more a factor here. I was 2-3 seconds off the pace in the race and a few times that I got close behind someone I couldn't follow closely when going through high speed corners, for example. When I was out of that turbulent air, the tyres were fine.

Like I said, ignore me if I'm being a pleb :D
 

Alex Salmon

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Hang on, isn't that exactly what the official statement on the tyre model on these cars trying to achieve? Tyre management? I'm far from an expert, but not being able to stay close is an obvious problem, certainly in F1. Yea I'm sure the tyre contributes, but I'm guessing that turbulent air is more a factor here. I was 2-3 seconds off the pace in the race and a few times that I got close behind someone I couldn't follow closely when going through high speed corners, for example.

Like I said, ignore me if I'm being a pleb :D
The issue is you slide more under dirty air so it affects the tire heat more and you drop away. If the tire is more resilient then its not going to overheat and cause damage. I'm not saying its not correct to what we see in FOM series running pirellis Im just asking is it really the best thing for our championship? The real life rules are the problem RSS is just replicating it exactly for realism. Its not necessarily making our racing better and we have an option to fix it so why not right?
 

cheekymunkey78

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Damn, didn't realise there was a race this week, thought we had longer break. Sorry for missing this one, see you at the next one.
 

Alex Salmon

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Just as a little update I've done some tire testing on imola and although not as bad temp wise as silverstone you can still have issues with cooking softs and also the mediums. IMO its not a track thats tough on tires and looking at the calendar there's certainly worse to come. At imola I've ran the hard and found that with the correct pressures you can retain the heat. The good thing is if we all run hards then those pressures can nearly stay as is between races over the season i think. Another issue I've found on the mediums and softs if once you've had a moment the tire is dead and you almost need to stop for 30s to bring it back to life. obviously the harder the compound the less this effect is. Worth a look at imo...
 

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