Assetto Corsa PLP Alternative Discussion Thread (2 Viewers)

[Assetto Corsa]

Please discuss the topic here, in a friendly manner

@t0daY @Noztra @Ricardo Macieira @David Siska @Duppy @Berserkmir @Wazzaap! @Battenberg @Puffpirat @Jeff[NL] @Alex Salmon @Jamesl91 @Diluvian @Nada @cheekymunkey78 @Jonno @Dama_The_Crow @hinesy32 @Darksi @JetPistol @Daz Oz @Exited @steveg200 @Emin Babaoglu @Dangerous Gianetta @Ulti @Microlander @miagi @popzz @GinchaA @TicklishPicklewickle @Stokemon @Cornworld @Nismo @Mr AlcoN @Jomba @Vernux @MATT1 @Pwox @avxstudio @Mazy CZ @CrisBCros @Yammie916 @Angel @Snouffy @EVR Morvic @The Wayfaerer @Ben Watkinson

 

[Morvic]

I have an alternative idea, it's just a matter if you're willing to accept it.

To get it into some context first, I see where both sides are coming from. @Alex Salmon to be fair has every right to be pissed off, but he also has every right to say something is terribly out of place here. PLP may be a good system when it comes to policing normal cut tracks, but as we can see it is flawed to a point where you can be penalized for something that's not really your fault. I know some people say "be more cautious", but I don't think going 50 kph instead of 30 when rejoining the track is not cautious.

I say we should get rid of PLP. @t0daY you mentioned a few things that I'd like to adress. First I remember was that people will exploit the track to the limit when PLP is off. They do that right now anyway, except they adjust to what PLP allows them for. The rules state that you should stay within the white lines, so they should adjust anyway (I'll return to that later on).

Secondly, you said you don't have time to check the replays for corner cuts and such. And I completely agree with you as I've experienced something simmiliar in the past (PCars 1 and the infamous GT3 leagues known from a certain place). But, what I believe is we're in a fair community and most people will try to be inside the lines, but even if they don't, noone forces you to watch the replays.

I say, if someone is abusing the track limits absurdly, someone from the drivers should just report it. Provide enough evidence for the stewards to review. That way, you're not forced to go through hours of replays - if someone feels bad with anyone's driving -> make a stewards enquiry. Otherwise, I'd say to just leave it be. It has worked out for me, so I'm just giving an idea for you to think about

I'm saying this because I feel what Alex says is just right and hard not to agree with. And in my opinion, if it's flawed in a big way (let's be honest, it does affect a lot), it shouldn't just be used.

(I realise it might be a bit hard to read it, if you don't understand something just tell me and I'll clarify what I meant - I'm not an english speaker and it's quite late now )

EDIT: one more thing to add - if you feel my way of policing isn't enough, you could also encourage other people to work together on it. you could just watch ~5 laps of each person with fast forward to tell if he's cheating or not )

 

[m4nu]

(I realise it might be a bit hard to read it, if you don't understand something just tell me and I'll clarify what I meant - I'm not an english speaker and it's quite late now )

Understanding it perfectly

 

[Jeff[NL]]

I dont know PLP as in programming but isnt it possible to adjust PLP so you get the notifications and such but are not forced to do it ? It is still registered then and can be reviewed after the race ?

 

[m4nu]

I dont know PLP as in programming but isnt it possible to adjust PLP so you get the notifications and such but are not forced to do it ? It is still registered then and can be reviewed after the race ?

If you are reviewing them after each race we can go that route. Nobody in the team is keen to do that for each race because of time reasons...

 

[Pwox]

I copy paste what i wroted about PLP from Tor Poznan post :

Although, concerning PLP App, imo i really don't think its a big deal. If you signed up to this league it's because you agree with the terms of the leagues, and discussed the league rules and format because you had to serve a drive through is pretty sad considering the amount of work this league need. I'm allowing myself to say this because i also had to serve a drive through when the 4th warning was unfair (lost the rear, managed to saved it, lost time but cut the inside curb..)
I know some people fight for the top 5 but in that case be more carefull, finding the limit and be competitive is also managing the track limits with PLP App in mind. The limits may be harsh, but i think it is pretty fair and if you got 3 warnings before, its because you spun too much and then didn't practice enough, or because you are not respecting the limits of the track.

 

[Jeff[NL]]

If you are reviewing them after each race we can go that route. Nobody in the team is keen to do that for each race because of time reasons...

Only need to check the ignored penalty's i dont think that are a lot ? After race the driver who did ignored should let staff know why he did it and it can be reviewed ?

 

[cheekyspam]

Thought I would get in early for this one (all said with love ).

TLDR; IMHO PLP is the best solution we have (unless an alternate is put forward)


I have done F1 2017, iRacing, Automoblista, Assetto Corsa... and due to my lack of ability I frequently activate the systems so have seen most of them.

I feel it is quite simple that we keep PLP for the following reasons:

1. The stewards and the league owners have enough to do so a manual review is not an option. And even when they make a decision for the non PLP issues it has already proven people want to challenge the decision so a full appeals system needs to be included - in the words of a viral video "Ain't nobody got time for that!"

2. The Assetto Corsa built in system, although would do a job is not "Real" in terms of it makes you slow down for 10 seconds.... before the end of the lap or slow down to a silly slow speed else you get banned. It is not as good as PLP

3. PLP is not perfect but none of the other systems on any of the other games/simulations are and many of the issues raised here I have see multiple times in others. What PLP does is allow the league to Tailor it for their needs, it also gives you a visual indication when you can re-enter the track without penalty (when the colour box turns from Red to Green).

4. iRacing system which is arguably the best system is based on the same principle of "absolute rule" i.e. if someone smashes you off the track you also get the penalty which affects your race and safety rating without the option to appeal. So much so that F1 2018 have made there "attempt" of a similar system which also uses "Absolute Rule".


The two options I could see improve this situation is:

1. Increase the amount of warning you can get before a penalty is applied (iRacing have flexible "buffers"). This would then weaken the injustice as for example if you cut the track 5 times but on the 6th one get nudged off unfairly you have only yourself to blame for the 5 previous apposed to the 2/3 it currently is.

2. I don't know if this is possible but can the penalty be changed to a time penalty (even a heavy one of 30s) rather than a drive through that is applied straight after the race (automatically if possible). also if you have committed too many PLP violations you get DSQ'ed. This would eliminate injustice as they could be appealed and retrospectively removed.

 

[Alex Salmon]

First of all I would like to apologize to everyone for my outburst it could have been handled better if i waited for the adrenaline and frustration simmer down.

The point that @EVR Morvic has made is exactly what I was trying to say. I firstly had an early incident that ended with me on the grass, thats fine it happens but driving back onto the track I get 1 Strike for corner cutting. After this I make 1 or 2 mistakes in traffic that loose me time (neither are significantly out the track limits either) that puts me on 1 strike left before a DT and I was aware of this so was driving conservatively then I take a slightly wrong line lose it onto the grass, this looses me 5-6 seconds, and then I drive back onto the circuit and BANG must serve a DT penalty for track limits. I think it was because it was a really slow speed spin and the speed I left the track was much slower than i drove back in..

I was in 18th position at the time I took the drive through, this was before the pitstops so possibly I could have finished top 10 maybe. Instead I had to serve a DT that forced me back to p28 and into considerable traffic. So doing the maths its very easy to see I lost out on a shed load of championship points here and with no drop round like we have had previously in other leagues it kind of sucks.

The thing that really got under my skin was that I couldn't not take the penalty even though I'm 100% sure it wasn't fair, When i raised concerns in the thread earlier last week i was replied with the old statement 'Well in Real life X happens' But i have to ask when was the last time you saw an IRL driver get a penalty for loosing time on the grass?

I think this track was particularly bad with PLP as i think you could get a penalty even if your not running all for wheels over, whatever the case it was certainly it was worse than Zolder.

But anyway I would just like to point out I'm most likely not the only driver to get strikes in unjust ways so taking this into consideration can we be 100% sure that the other people who served DT penalties in the race deserved them? In the past in Pcars we have disregarded results for similar inconsistencies (such as the de-synced weather where certain dirvers had dry tracks where others had full wet) so surely it would be sensible to take into consideration taking this race out the championship in case some people have been unfairly awarded penalties and thus lost out on points?

To fix the situation: Obviously we cant make the admins watch every lap from every driver but then again we never have with the revolution cup in pcars. I do believe that the self policing option works and we are still quite a tightly knit community so we can trust each-other to be honest hopefully. If @Jeff[NL] is correct that would be nice so we can at least have a second opinion to make sure we deserve the penalty.

To me though it seems like PLP has an underlying problem between the tracks of being inconsistent. The 3 tracks we have driven have had vastly different criteria for cut tracks, none of which directly match our rules as a community so what can we do? Certain drivers have had time to test every night between events and find the limits of the system for each track. others haven't and are just going by standard rules ( which could in theory get them a penalty) We had a system outside AC that I think its better than the current one as we could decide amount ourselves depending on the situation.

 

[miagi]

After this I make 1 or 2 mistakes in traffic that loose me time (neither are significantly out the track limits either) that puts me on 1 strike left before a DT

As I recall it you were driving alone and just before your 2nd Warning you were lucky you didn't get one too, you were just millimetres away from it cutting on the inside. The two times you were off without a spin, it was on the outside, at least on one occasion you could have easily slow down and prevent a penalty but you chose to take it. Ask @Exited how much time he gave up to actively prevented a Warning.

I think it was because it was a really slow speed spin and the speed I left the track was much slower than i drove back in..

Yes you spun out and left the track with about 30 kph, you re-entered it with 50 kph. There is an indicator that shows if you're slow enough or too fast. You could have avoided this Warning too.

I was in 18th position at the time I took the drive through, this was before the pitstops so possibly I could have finished top 10 maybe.

You spun out with a strategically pointless move on Jetpistol early in the race and had two unforced spins in the 2nd to last corner in this race. A DT on this track costs about 12-13 seconds. If you think that overall performance was enough to score top10 today, I think you bluntly underestimate the other drivers. Also Jetpistol did 2 or 3 DT and finished far in front of you. I don't see the point.

The thing that really got under my skin was that I couldn't not take the penalty even though I'm 100% sure it wasn't fair

Fairness is very subjective. If you are not willing to work within the system and rejoin the track slower than you left it, it's not the system that is "unfair" or a reason why it needs to be replaced or turned off.

I do believe that the self policing option works and we are still quite a tightly knit community so we can trust each-other to be honest hopefully.

That is just not true, it never worked in pcars 1 or 2, for that is the reason we never could organize highly competitive cups. I tried pcars ESL once (highly competitive) with Puffi and Manu and it was disgusting and we never went back there.

Also please let me give you an impression from my personal experience, of how the self policing option creates hatred between users when it actually is applied. I once did such a steward case and all I got was anger and ingratitude. The story goes, once I checked a replay for my own incident, I randomly found that in catalunya a driver was systematically cutting the chicane, partly to catch up to P1. In the end that driver won the race. When I made a cut track steward case the driver at fault was really angry at me and asked me why I only checked him. Well I checked the winner and I'm in no way obligated to watch all the drivers equally, like I have the time and spirit for that. Still the driver at fault accused me I had something against him personally like this practical example of self policing was some kind of affront against him. Result, I didn't make such a case again to prevent particular or any driver getting mad at me.

To me though it seems like PLP has an underlying problem between the tracks of being inconsistent.

I don't see the point, on Poznan the PLP gave cut tracks when someone touched the dirt outside the kerb. If the kerb was fully used, nothing happened. You could even drive with one tire on the dirt as the kerb ended and nothing happend. Riding gras and dirt with such a car and slicks is not realistic, should not be encouraged and is basically a driving error.

The 3 tracks we have driven have had vastly different criteria for cut tracks, none of which directly match our rules as a community so what can we do?

Poznan didn't allow to go beyond the kerb, what is perfectly reasonable in real life as a dirty slick performs less well than a clean one. Salzburg was good and Zolder gave the drivers bit of slack. Strangely no one complained at Zolder that the PLP allows too much, it seems only to be a problem when it's a bit too tight? It's not a valid point to kill PLP. It is a good working system, simple, efficient and saves Stewards and Staff a lot of time and anger.

Certain drivers have had time to test every night between events and find the limits of the system for each track. others haven't and are just going by standard rules ( which could in theory get them a penalty)

So now we are complaining that the ppl that have more time can practice more? Come on really? I tested quite a lot on Poznan because I like this track and did not know it and now I feel accused of cheating a bit. I hope this is not what you tried to say. I never tested the track limits, I just practice to get faster, more consistent and get to grips with AC and the cars in general. All I learned about PLP was, stay away from the track edge, and that was all I needed to know. In the post on the forum I did early I shared the entire knowledge of PLP from my testing on Poznan and what I learned about the PLP track limits. If you plan to drive to the edge of the track and make a small mistake and are beyond the edge, you have only yourself to blame for the warning. Simply plan to barley use the kerb and then if you make a little mistake you're still fine. It's the same for everyone. It's really not rocket science and nothing one would need to extensively practice for to pull off.

 

[Mazy CZ]

I couldn't agree more with @miagi

But I will try tro write my perspective on it as I have the experience of running 5 seasons with Mr. @Noztra before. In 1st season, we races GT3's and used AC penalty system. I think we get rid of it very fast. Don't actually remember if we left it for the whole season or we turned it off. Nobody wants to slow down to 35kph or lift the throttle for 30 seconds.

I think it was @Noztra who found this PLP on the internet. I looked at it, tried it and found it really realistic in terms of warning instead of instant penalty and the fact it can be modified to some extent. I still believe it is the best penalty system in terms of track limits. Nothing is perfect so it has some flaws. But those flaws are not mistake of the PLP app, it is rather mistake of each track and its programmed track limits. The app works together with built-in AC track limits. Sometimes the modded tracks have better limits than original and vice versa.

To run no penalties and just believe in drivers will not work. And the fact is, there are drivers that will take any advantage. If nobody is looking why not to cut the chicane at Zolder? When I run the leagues, I was really considering to create "invite only" league just for drivers that we would like to race with us. And that we can believe they are fair and we can trust them with track limits a 100%. In that case there would be no penalty system needed, no stewards, no track limits cases and most of it would be fair and enjoyable. And of course, no points, no championships, nothing. Just sit back and have a race. But it wasn't realized as I stopped with organizing due to having a baby born.

I get @Alex Salmon point, but in all fairness, if you want to be a champion, then drive like one and behave like one. The conditions are the same for everyone. As with Zolder race. You claimed that you haven't speed into the pitlane. In that case, the PLP is just precise. And there is 2kph margain so you could go 82 without penalty. It is just your responsibility to know where the pitlane speed is. It could be on the other place than 60mph/80kph sign and the way to know where the limit start is that you drive into the pits full speed and when the car starts to slow down by itself, that is the point where the entry line and speed limit apply. And as @miagi pointed out, you had 3 warnings before you spun. So for me it is without discussion.
At Tor Poznan, i think the track limits were perfect. The only problematic areas were the exit of the faster S chicane in S2, then the exit of the fast left hander and exit of the last turn. But I believe if somebody got warning there, they were really on the edge so I think it was better than having the limit over the grass.

But on the other side, there is still something we can do. The PLP can be tweaked. Instead of drive through, it can be switched to limed penalty added after the race (but coords have to add the time manually as it is only written in the app report), the number of warnings ca be increased, percentage of speed you have to loose before rejoining etc etc. But if we increase warnings from 3 to 6, there will be drivers who will get 6 warnings and then do another mistake (spin, crash, whatewer) and got DT and will be pissed as it is not fair.

In the end, it is same for everyone.

 

[Noztra]

So I will try one of my more lengthy technical post on how PLP works, like I did with the track grip.

This is the settings in PLP.

Some of the stuff is more important than other, so ill only cover important stuff.

WHEELS_OUT=3
We actually modified this from 2 to give some leeway. With 3 wheels out, you pretty much need to go off the track or cut hard to get a penalty.
MIN_SPEED=50
So everything below that will not result in a cut/warning.
TOTAL_WARNINGS=3
How many warnings you can get a penalty.
LAPS_TO_TAKE_PENALTY=3
How many laps you have to take the penalty. So if you spin in the last corner and get a penalty, you will only have 2 laps to take it.
ENABLE_SPEEDING_PENALTIES=true
So you can't go into the pit full speed and you need to manual slow down.
PIT_LANE_SPEED=82
Pit lane speed is 80kph, so between 80kph and 82kph will not result in a penalty. 0.00000001 over 82kph will result in a penalty.
SECONDS_BETWEEN_CUTS=10
So if you get a cut, you are "immune" for the next 10 secs.
JUMP_START_PENALTY_SECONDS=20
It not actually 20 secs, but a DT if you do a jump start.
AMNESTY_LAPS=1
Cuts/warnings are not counted on lap 1.
MAX_CUT_TIME=1.5
The maximum time cut (in seconds) to trigger a warning.
MIN_SLOW_DOWN_RATIO=0.8
if you reenter the track at 80% or lower you wont get a warning/penalty. This means that if you go off track with 100kph, you can reenter with 80kph or lower and not get a warning. The light will change from red to green in PLP.

So all these things works together and its fairly easy to understand.
1. You get 3 warnings and on the 4th warning you get a DT.
2. You have 3 laps to take a DT.
3. Going faster than 82kph into pit will give you a DT.
4. If you cut and get a warning, you can't get a new warning for the next 10 secs.
5. Cuts/warnings are not counted on lap 1.
6. If you go off track and slow down to 80% of your off track speed, you won't get a warning/penalty. The PLP will change from RED (Warning/Penalty) to GREEN (Clear).

If the system perfect? By no means, but its a 1000x times than other systems for Assetto Corsa and its what we have to work with. It annoys me that people are "blaming" the PLP for their inadequacies. 99% of the cases you get a warning/penalty is because you go off track because you pushed to hard. And you can get 3 warnings, before you a penalty so why keep pushing 110% if you are on 3/3. I see people complete the race fine with 0 warnings and still have good results.

Edit: Btw I am not trying to bash you or anything @Alex Salmon, but it seems like you are the only who have a big issues with the PLP. In race 1 it was the PLP's fault that you entered the pit to fast, even though you could practice the pit entry during practice. In race 2 PLP was fine for you, because you won the race. In race 3 if was bad again because you get a new penalty. So for me it seems the system is broken when you are not winning/getting a good result.

/Noz

 

[Mazy CZ]

I would add one also important aspect:

MAX_SPEED_RATIO_FOR_CUT = 0,6

That says that the cut will be detected even if you slow down but you are going 0,6*max speed of the car.

So here is an example.

Our DTM car has top speed of 270kph (lets say, my final drive says that, but it depends on the car.ini file i guess)
You are approaching high speed corner that you can take almost flat. You want to try that so you turn in, going 240kph constantly (for better calculations). You hit the inside kerb nicely but you carry too much speed (240kph) and go also over the exit kerb and off the track a bit (lets say there is not grass but normal run off asphalt area). You have RED square and you want to slow down. So you slow down to 80% of the exit speed which is 192KPH or less and rejoin the track, but you still got a warning.

Well, that is the other parameter above. If you rejoin at speed of 0,6*270=162KPH or more, you get warning no matter how long it took (more than 1,5sec) or how much you slowed down.

So maybe we can put this multiplier to higher number and see. Also the MIN_SLOW_DOWN_RATIO can be put to 0,9 again and if we have 0,9 and 0,9, then the situation will be as follows:

Same exit speed of 240KPH. You need to slow down to 0,9*240= 216kph (whih is OK) and also you need to be slower then 270*0,9=243KPH.
Then, no warning is issued.

BUT!
now the problem is that if you exit this corner and go full throttle and stay more than 1,5sec, the RED square turns to green and no warning is issued. But you have to rejoin in 243kph or less.

I suggest to tweak those 2 numbers.

But if a driver is hit from behind or make a mistake going into some chicane, the car exits the track at some speed but goes across the track/grass/track again, then the warning can be issued but that is just bad luck then.

 

[Stokemon]

I have been vocal on this subject before, I did not take part last night therefore am unaware as to what happened. However I would appreciate if this time my opinion is not dismissed completely in the next post. I will do my best to present a justified argument with ideas for a solution. At the preseason race I was annoyed for the same things which occurred in Zolder but was merely told this is how the app works and then we went to the season start.

I do everything I can to be a clean and fair racer, I have never had a stewards case to me about track limits, nor I have I even picked up a warning about track limits from post event reviews while being an active member for almost 2 years. I am not perfect and I have cut the track before, but when I do I lift when it is safe to do so and return the time gained (and probably more). At Zolder I picked up 3 warnings for track limits.

Here is warning 1:


I miss my apex (I think because I was interested behind, or just being an idiot) and run wide. I held the car in a straight line off the track gradually rejoining focused on not spinning out. While doing so I could see the red light, so I ensure I give up a position. When I return to the track fully I see I have a warning.

Warning 2:


After cut track 1 I had James on my rear, I felt he was much quicker and made a (bad) decision to let him go and not fight him hard. I did this badly into the last chicane and had hinsey next to me heading into turn 1. I ensured that I left him enough space on the inside (and in hindsight about 3 other cars) and found my car understeered wide. I was trying to hold onto the car and keep pace so kept my foot in. I lost pace and went far enough to gain a warning.

Warning 3:


Simple honest mistake. Trying to catch the guy infront I brake too late for the chicane. The annoying thing about this one was I had a warning before I could do anything about it. I still lifted out of the throttle after the corner, prior to the chicane you can see my delta is -0.3 and by the bridge it is +0.3 confirming that in that section I lost time but received a warning.

It is the last one in particular that gets me. How am I supposed to change that to not receive a warning? I made a mistake and by the time I had caught it and could process I have cut the corner it is too late. In all 3 scenarios I have lost time, in 1 I give up a position.

So this is what I think are options going forwards:
Increase the number of warnings
I don't know this code, but is there a way to allow 30s post cut to return the time before a warning is issued? iRacing slow down idea
Change system/return to what we used to have*

*I'm aware this seems contentious but I only once caught someone who I thought was pushing the limits. A kind "track limits xxx" on ts and he was okay with it, changed his line and we carried on happily.

**Edit: gave wrong time stamp for warning 3

 

[Mazy CZ]

Another idea that was presented by @Jeff[NL] . Turn the penalties off and leave just warnings. Then, if a driver has more warnings than coordinators say is too much to have a penalty, then that driver recieves a timed penalty. If that driver however disagrees, he has to provide evidence that some warnings were issued unfairly.

I don't know if the PLP app and the log after the race does some conclusion of how many warnings each driver had during a session.
(not a fan of this as it will need some additional work from some person)

 

[SteveO916]

I think the PLP app is fine as it is...and I'm usually off track more than most. Sometimes a cut is a cut and there is nothing you can do about it, but most of the time for off tracks you get a chance to clear it. You have to make sure you manage correctly the cuts and off tracks that you are given the opportunity to rectify by slowing down till the warning goes back to green.

maybe you should all slow down a little if you cannot stay within the limits at the speed you are going?

 

[miagi]

We saw time penalties in pcars2. Like for cutting/off track a drivers gets +1s ,+2s, +3s ... And the driver behind could see it in the hud. That was pretty silly in the end for example if P1 has +2s then all P2 needs to do is stay within 2s and then P1 can't do anything about it. Also P2 doesn't need to take the effort of an overtaking, it kills racing.

In the case of PLP giving time penalty at the end allows the driver at fault for too much strategy. It's supposed to be a penalty not a strategic tool. If the driver behind doesn't know that or if the guy in front already collected a penalty he could be lead to cut more too to keep up.

Another concern would be the hassle and the discussions that are forced upon the Staff. Some ppl tent to whine and complain so much until they get their will. Some might even threat to leave the league if the Staff doesn't agree with the subjective point of view. There is a lot of toxicity to be avoided if a PLP-DT solves the issue.

The PLP system is the same for everyone, it is unbiased unlike any human an therefore truly fair. There can never be 100% fairness when a human is involved in the decision anyway. In every sport that has judges or a referee you see complains from every side about it. Here we have the option to use and automated system that solves errors within the race so that the sim stats result has some chance to be the official result what further reduces the work load for Staff.

Again I don't see a problem with the PLP system if a driver spins out, as long as he slowly enters the track, everything is fine.

 

[Jomba]

I think PLP is an ok ap. It has flaws, but it get's the job done, you just have to get used to how it works to not get unneccessary penalties.

Maybe just increase a nomber of strikes by one or two and, if possible, change penalty from Dt to time. But this is debatable, even on track per track level.

If you leave it as it is, it's fine by me. Certainly alot better then having none.

 

[Diluvian]

Because PLP is a fair system cause of its nature to punish everyone the same I would prefer to keep it for the league.

A lot of bla you can jump over if you want:

The only suggestion from me would be to increase the number of warnings. We are still a community who plays to have fun and who plays to get onto our personal limits and an average driver like me who wants to gain positions and who tries to provide an interesting and intense race it's almost impossible not to leave the track sometimes (which in almost every situation it results in a loss of time). Especially starting in the midfields there is a high propability that you have to leave the track and are not able to slow down immediately. Even when lapping or being lapped I had situations I triggered the 4th 'cut' and had to do my DT.

Yesterday I was fighting miagi, I had 0 warnings but the fight was so intense and fun that I gained 3 warnings and none of those cuts helped me gaining time at all but after those I had to stop fighting him .. just following, because I wasn't able to do any better. And that's not what I want to experience when playing a game. Just following and taking no more risk.

The pro drivers do less mistakes but this doesn't mean that their driving skills should be handled as the standard for PLP.

My suggestion is to double the amoung of warnings up to 6 and leave everything else as is.

 

[Morvic]

I won't put more input into the conversation but I just wanted to point something out.

The conditions are the same for everyone.

I personally think that it's good to discuss and not agree on something than we think is harmful in some ways instead of bowing and accepting it "because it is what is is". (Before you eat me for this, I accept the rules. I like racing here so I agreed on everything here, but my personality often shows its' rebel character )