Assetto Corsa PLP Alternative Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Alex Salmon]

@Stokemon 's POVs show some real issues. Obviously if you make a mistake and run wide you are meant to hit the brakes to get to the minimum speed. but if you are on the dirt you cant just jump on the brakes as any other small inputs can put the car in dangerous situation. look at the first video If he would have tried slow down there that car most likely would have lost control an spun onto the circuit. To me that strict of a system isn't correct at least the re entry speed needs to come up so you only need to lift.

Its not the right approach throwing penalties at everyone for everything we need to really sit back and look at the logic of 0.1 tenth gained X 4 = 20+ second DT at the end of the day this system has pushed it too far over the edge and we have gone from inconvenience too overly restrictive and race threatening. For those who said its because I diddnt win its not at all its because Im a fan of racing hard, fair and assertive and in a fun manner and the constant threat of penalties from a couple small mistakes destroy that.

What some dont understand is those racing deserve the benefit of the doubt and sometimes its ok to let something slide if its not too serious. lets remember why track limits are here, its to stop you from doing a blancpain and and taking a 90 right at 130 mph in 5th using 3 times more width than the track. Its not for someone messing up a little and going 10mm wider than the white line but thats what we are punishing especially on tracks like this where its not possible to gain time track extending. The chances are PLP will be great for people maliciously track extending (i dont think we have seen an example of this yet imo) but there is way too much collateral damage for it to be useful for us having good races.

should not be encouraged and is basically a driving error.

People shouldn't be punished for small errors that are inconsequential. We are human and humans make mistakes from time to time if thats a problem then we may aswell ask AI to do the race for us.

 

[Noztra]

@Alex Salmon I get your point that small mistakes shouldn't be punished. But that's how it works when an "AI" is doing it. The other option is to turn it off and let RSR staff watch every single lap of every single car and then decide what is minor or major. Ive been down that road with @Mazy CZ and @SilverArrow3 helped out and you can ask those guys how much fun is to spend 10 hour each watching replays.

The other problem with a "human" doing it, is that humans are biased. So if I don't like you, I would probably be harder against you, than perhaps someone else. The "AI" is fair and hard towards everyone, so people know what they have to work with.

My point is that there is 38 cars on the grid. 35 of those car manages to get trough a 1 hour race with 3 or less warnings. Why should we change a system that 95% of people don't have an issue with? Don't you think its because you push to hard? If you are going 110% every single lap, the margin for error is higher and you would probably have a higher change of getting warnings/DT.

Again I get where you are coming from, but I don't really see the problem. You know the playing field and its the same for everyone. That's fairness imo.

And I am not saying PLP is perfect. Its far from perfect, but its the best option we have.

/Noz

Post automatically merged: Jan 23, 2019

I won't put more input into the conversation but I just wanted to point something out.

I personally think that it's good to discuss and not agree on something than we think is harmful in some ways instead of bowing and accepting it "because it is what is is". (Before you eat me for this, I accept the rules. I like racing here so I agreed on everything here, but my personality often shows its' rebel character )

Its always good to talk and discuss about stuff.

There is always stufft that can be improved.

Post automatically merged: Jan 23, 2019

Another idea that was presented by @Jeff[NL] . Turn the penalties off and leave just warnings. Then, if a driver has more warnings than coordinators say is too much to have a penalty, then that driver recieves a timed penalty. If that driver however disagrees, he has to provide evidence that some warnings were issued unfairly.

I don't know if the PLP app and the log after the race does some conclusion of how many warnings each driver had during a session.
(not a fan of this as it will need some additional work from some person)

The server logs everything from PLP, but someone has to go trough the server log and find it. It's fairly easy, but after a race the server log can be 100.000 lines or more.

And the second issue as @miagi talked about is, that after each race everyone who got a time penalty will complain and try to get their penalty reversed. So the stewards will have go trough so much replay and talk to people, etc. Just to much work imo.

 

[Alex Salmon]

Don't you think its because you push to hard? If you are going 110% every single lap, the margin for error is higher

Its a sprint series, we should be pushing 110% if you want to drive 90% go and do a 3hour stint in an endurance series.

My point about whats malicious and whats a mistake though. I think we can all agree this is what PLP is there to avoid Not the little issues we are talking about.

Personally I think if you are not pushing your limits above and beyond every lap you drive you're never going to learn anything about car control and your own abilities. People aren't born good its finding how hard you can push yourself and the car so naturally you are going to mess up sometimes, it becomes a point where we begin to punish attempts of people finding that limit. I think at least the strikes should be increased and the amount of speed you need too drop off when re entering should be reduced to just a lift. We can see from the @Stokemon video that its wanting you too loose WAY more time than you gain anyway

 

[m4nu]

Its a sprint series, we should be pushing 110% if you want to drive 90% go and do a 3hour stint in an endurance series.

My point about whats malicious and whats a mistake though. I think we can all agree this is what PLP is there to avoid Not the little issues we are talking about.

Personally I think if you are not pushing your limits above and beyond every lap you drive you're never going to learn anything about car control and your own abilities. People aren't born good its finding how hard you can push yourself and the car so naturally you are going to mess up sometimes, it becomes a point where we begin to punish attempts of people finding that limit. I think at least the strikes should be increased and the amount of speed you need too drop off when re entering should be reduced to just a lift. We can see from the @Stokemon video that its wanting you too loose WAY more time than you gain anyway

But the main aspect is, that there are many drivers who can race with this system.

I had 2 warnings in Tor Poznan with half an hour practice. I got to know the track limits and knew where I can go wide and where not.

We have to differ between "I dont like the system because of X" and the actually goal we try to achieve: An environment where every driver is bound to the same rules.

As soon as we start looking at certain cuts we go away from the equality playing ground because a human can't be to 100% accurate and unbiased.

Post automatically merged: Jan 23, 2019

Addition to that, I had zero problems with plp in any race we did this season. Doesnt that count as well? Or does only count the people who got issues?

 

[Alex Salmon]

But the main aspect is, that there are many drivers who can race with this system.

I had 2 warnings in Tor Poznan with half an hour practice. I got to know the track limits and knew where I can go wide and where not.

We have to differ between "I dont like the system because of X" and the actually goal we try to achieve: An environment where every driver is bound to the same rules.

As soon as we start looking at certain cuts we go away from the equality playing ground because a human can't be to 100% accurate and unbiased.

Yes but you are so bound by the restrictions that it becomes more of just qualify and follow for 55 mins because if I make 2 mistakes trying to follow you and 2 later in the race battling the next guy its race over. We need to relax it because its too much. PLP should be in the back of your mind in case you get greedy NOT the main thing in your head during the race stopping you from driving at 100%. Hence why it would be better to open it up at bit, I realize that its needed looking at Rd 6 and Rd 4 tracks but it shouldn't get in the way of the fun and enjoyment of pushing these cars to the limits...

 

[Noztra]

Its a sprint series, we should be pushing 110% if you want to drive 90% go and do a 3hour stint in an endurance series.

I would rather go 100% and stay within the limits than go 110% and go without the limits. If you wanna do 110% every lap, by all means do it. Just don't moan about penalties afterwards.
And I am actually doing 12h of Bathurst where I am probably gonna do 90%.

Personally I think if you are not pushing your limits above and beyond every lap you drive you're never going to learn anything about car control and your own abilities.

I can also push 200% and cut every corner. Does that make me a faster driver than you? Pushing within the limits is a good driver abilities.

People aren't born good its finding how hard you can push yourself and the car so naturally you are going to mess up sometimes, it becomes a point where we begin to punish attempts of people finding that limit.

And that why you have 3 warnings before you get a penalty, so you can find the limit. There is a difference between finding the limit and keep crossing it. If you can't within 4 penalties learn what's acceptable and not, you need reevaluate you own abilities, because then your are clearly pushing to hard.

I think at least the strikes should be increased and the amount of speed you need too drop off when re entering should be reduced to just a lift.

I agree with that we can look at maybe tweaking the PLP and its something we are gonna test during the break. But we are not changing it just because 1-2 drivers can't play within the rules, when 35 others drives have no issues pushing and battling for 1 hour without getting a DT.

 

[Alex Salmon]

I can also push 200% and cut every corner. Does that make me a faster driver than you? Pushing within the limits is a good driver abilities.

Thats not what I mean at all! Im just saying if you overcook it accidentally because your actually trying to drive hard and fast you shouldn't be punished. Your punishment is you overstepping the cars limits and ultimately losing time.

Have you actually looked at those videos? How can you say that is driving in a way so you gain an advantage!!!

 

[Noztra]

Thats not what I mean at all! Im just saying if you overcook it accidentally because your actually trying to drive hard and fast you shouldn't be punished. Your punishment is you overstepping the cars limits and ultimately losing time.

And that's why you have 3 warnings before you get a DT? So you don't get punished right away if you "overcook it accidentally because your actually trying to drive hard and fast"

 

[Alex Salmon]

And that why you have 3 warnings before you get a penalty, so you can find the limit. There is a difference between finding the limit and keep crossing it. If you can't within 4 penalties learn what's acceptable and not, you need reevaluate you own abilities, because then your are clearly pushing to hard.

Racing with other cars can be unpredictable you can end up in situations where your off track multiple times if you are on a difficult track and racing hard. sometimes it not your fault for ending up there. What are we meant to do? Just give up on racing. It would be fine if you can just lift and come back but it wants you jump on the brakes and loose like 1.5 seconds for little issues, its a joke

 

[Mazy CZ]

If you mean Stokemons vids, then I agree to 50% of it.

The 1st vid shows that he is exiting the track and reentering in split second. And he got warning. Yes, he made a mistake but he actually rejoined with more speed than he left. Did he lost time? yes, because he lifted off afterwards which is fair enough and hats off, but that is a "warning" to be careful next time. And yes, it would be maybe worse to hit hte brakes, but alsothe speed was around 160kph and if he stayed more than 1,5 sec outside the track, he would not get the warning.

2nd vid is basicly the same as 1st one. Going side by side, I dont believe the car understeered so much that he couldnt make the corner. He went over the track and back fast so another warning.

3rd vid is just unlucky, but fair. He actually given up trying to stop the car. In that chicane It happened many times to me that I overbraked myself and I sill made the chicane. And as he says, he lifted after the chicane. When he was back on the track, there was +0,05 instead of +0,3 on his dashboard. so again, timed gained and bad luck.

If somebody says that PLP kills racing, then why I can drive and race with @Jeff[NL] for the whole race pushing each other very hard but fair and on the track.

To compare our racing withe real life racing, especially track limits, is not good. I am bold just because I ripped off all my hair wathcing F1 and how they drive on different track than it is created with white lines. But that is the problem of stawards that they dont do anything about it. I don't like it but nothing I can do with.

 

[Noztra]

Racing with other cars can be unpredictable you can end up in situations where your off track multiple times if you are on a difficult track and racing hard. sometimes it not your fault for ending up there. What are we meant to do? Just give up on racing. It would be fine if you can just lift and come back but it wants you jump on the brakes and loose like 1.5 seconds for little issues, its a joke

But why didn't you have a problem with at Salzburgring when you won? You where pushing 110% there right? Like i mentioned before, it seems like there is only a problem when its not working in your favor? Again we have 40+ other drivers who can fight, push, etc within the rules of PLP.

I agree that sometimes its not always your fault that you go off track, but if you follow the rules then you wont get a warning/penalty. If you aren't following the rules of PLP and get a warning, then its on you. Its no different for you, than it is for me.

 

[Stokemon]

Off topic, but can we agree that 110% and 200% are not possible. 100% is the maximum anyone can drive... Sorry guys it's been driving me mad reading it.

On topic, I agree with the purpose of PLP, I agree with the fairness, I just feel that I have fun driving at 100% in these sprint races. It is why I do them as a chance from my endurance racing. When I drive at 100% I'm going to make mistakes, as you can see earlier. In 1 hour 3/4 small mistakes (running a little wide) at maximum effort I don't think is too bad. Surely if the number was lifted from 3 warnings to 5 that would be suitable. It would allow for mistakes, but then not prevent those who made them from having a race with someone where the risk of making a mistake is more than doubled.

 

[Noztra]

Off topic, but can we agree that 110% and 200% are not possible. 100% is the maximum anyone can drive... Sorry guys it's been driving me mad reading it.

 

[Stokemon]

Interesting at Salzbergring I only discovered PLP at the exit of t1. Where in practice I had a similar, run wide lost time but as I was fighting to stay on track I was back on before I could slow to the required speed. I didn't see it in the race due to how my race went so there is no video of this.

 

[Alex Salmon]

But why didn't you have a problem with at Salzburgring when you won? You where pushing 110% there right? Like i mentioned before, it seems like there is only a problem when its not working in your favor? Again we have 40+ other drivers who can fight, push, etc within the rules of PLP.

I agree that sometimes its not always your fault that you go off track, but if you follow the rules then you wont get a warning/penalty. If you aren't following the rules of PLP and get a warning, then its on you. Its no different for you, than it is for me.

Because the nature of the track is COMPLETELY different. other than grass and tarmac whats similar between it and tor? the corners were all on camber and the opened out. You also had reference points for car placement being the massive fucking concrete blocks on the apex. On Tor corners are bumpy and off camber and the exit often tightens leading the car into under steer. It was a significantly more challenging track.

Post automatically merged: Jan 23, 2019

It is designed to make you feel like your going to run out of road, so in many cases people did.

 

[m4nu]

the massive fucking concrete blocks

I think I was clear in post one how the conversation in this thread should go... First and last warning

 

[Noztra]

And not to promote an different site, but watch this race and they say again that you can't battle with PLP on.

 

[Alex Salmon]

And not to promote an different site, but watch this race and they say again that you can't battle with PLP on.

Different cars different tracks. These are much slower cars and PLP at laguna works differently to Tor. Look at the car @ 33:19 that would have been a strike on Monday

 

[Stokemon]

My point with racing is, that when in a side by side race the chance of a mistake is over double. If someone has already made a couple of mistakes on their own it would become and unnecessary risk to go side by side with someone and have a race... Making the whole racing thing pointless. Again, I see you don't want to get rid of it, fine. But please consider the number of warnings.

I am thinking of the guys in the middle/back of the pack who are not as talented (me), make more mistakes on their own and will make more mistakes when racing people. None of them being malicious, cutting the track in the hope of winning a race. Just here for some fun.

 

[m4nu]

Different cars different tracks. These are much slower cars and PLP at laguna works differently to Tor. Look at the car @ 33:19 that would have been a strike on Monday

- Fact is, it is for everyone the same.
- Fact is, if ur driving over the limit (101%) and you leave the track a punishment in form of a warning is okay IMO
- Obviously PLP depends on the tracklimits of each track, I am already researching how to mod tracks but yeah, don't have infinite time unfortunately