Endurance Championship - R4: Road America - 20th May 2018 (1 Viewer)

[Col_McCoy]

As you say it Battenberg, it's the reason most of us are participating in a multi-class endurance event. It's the excitement, the joy, but also the pain and the sacrifices we have to make/encounter. A whole bunch of emotions while doing stuff we love, racing

 

[AndrexUK]

Don't get me wrong guys! On the whole, the majority of the lapping was perfectly fine.
But there was quite a few 'Noo no no, don't go' moments, that were a little scary!

As @Col_McCoy said, some are more experienced than others - and that is the nature of the beast!
And as @Battenberg said, if everyone was drove exactly the same, it wouldn't be a race!

I've always had the approach that I can loose less time by braking a little early and letting an LMP past early, so I can get back to the correct racing line. It's just that there were times that ppl were going for moves that I didn't think ppl would really have a go.

I don't think it will be much of an issue at Le-Mans, but just for clarification, (since I can't find any mention of it) who has the right of way? LMP or GT?
I've always had the opinion that it is up to the lapping car to make the safe pass, and it shouldn't rely on the GT giving way (obviously sometimes it's easier to give way, but equally, when GT's don't take an expected line, this can cause more issues than holding the normal line).

 

[Ranjanado]

My apologies to Jonno for the bump during the formation lap!! Just got a little confused and lost in the dark during the start. Back to induction for me. I'm going to pull out of most competitive ranked events until I get my head in the right place. I think doing the induction will help with my confidence and all!! two races and two not so good incidents. Don't really think I want a third

 

[Tom]

As you say it Battenberg, it's the reason most of us are participating in a multi-class endurance event. It's the excitement, the joy, but also the pain and the sacrifices we have to make/encounter. A whole bunch of emotions while doing stuff we love, racing

Yep, because keeping concentration for 2 hours, pushing the car lap after lap, and facing some pretty tough competition isn't enough - we throw in the paranoia, anguish, and terror of multi-class to make us suffer, and to make the good results that much sweeter.

I don't think it will be much of an issue at Le-Mans, but just for clarification, (since I can't find any mention of it) who has the right of way? LMP or GT?
I've always had the opinion that it is up to the lapping car to make the safe pass, and it shouldn't rely on the GT giving way (obviously sometimes it's easier to give way, but equally, when GT's don't take an expected line, this can cause more issues than holding the normal line).

We have in our rules:

• 1.4.1 - If you are going to be lapped, you should hold your racing line and leave the other driver responsible for making a safe pass. By sticking to the racing line, your movements are more predictable. It is also helpful to lift off the throttle, to allow the lapping car to pass sooner.

So, it is up to the faster car to make a safe pass. BUT in reality, nobody is perfect and we all make mistakes. The difference between an unsafe pass and an accident often lies in how the slower car's awareness and reaction. A little awareness of when a move is being made, and a little cooperation go a long way in ensuring both cars survival. If you want to put a percentage on it, I guess it would be 75% faster driver, 25% slower driver.

While I'm on my soapbox, my pet hate is faster drivers moaning 'Hold your line', while they're sat in your blind spot. If you're out of vision in a braking zone, I can't see where you are, and I'm assuming you're on my rear corner. If I take my normal line, I'll get punted, and it'll be my fault for turning in on you. So of course I'm going to give you the corner (I want to live), so stop moaning.

 

[miagi]

I've always had the opinion that it is up to the lapping car to make the safe pass, and it shouldn't rely on the GT giving way (obviously sometimes it's easier to give way, but equally, when GT's don't take an expected line, this can cause more issues than holding the normal line).

From past experience, the whole "How to lap in MC" should be carefully phrased. At first Lapping in MC is different to lapping in Single-Class. Being lapped by the same class car means one is mostly out of the race for the victory so conclusion to any reasonable person should be to, not stand in the way of the drivers that are in lead lap. At least that's what I sometimes shout when I watch real life racing. In MC, lower classes are doing their race and in a good MC the faster class is quick enough to pass without much fighting. Now why watch out with the phrasing? Because in the past I felt some ppl saw "hold your racing line and leave the other driver responsible for making a safe pass" and thought "lowerclass doesn't need any awareness and just drive like your the only car on track". (Probably more the TGC time but it was hard to get that out of some ppls heads...) That is obviously bollocks, anytime the faster class car goes for the inside and hold his line, while the slower class car turns in on him, it's the slower class car to blame for the accident.

In this "league" I had the impression at the first two races there were too many ppl that in the GT3 that wanted to decide for the LMP2s where and how they should pass. But this is not how it works out, the faster class car makes the move and dictates how it goes and the slower class car has to cooperate. In Spa it was already much better, didn't had the feeling any more that GT3s tried to dictate the manoeuvrer.

Generally for the slower class, stay on race line, give the faster car the inside, don't turn in on him and lift a bit earlier for the corner to reduce the time two cars are wheel to wheel.

One more paragraph, bear with me. More complicated situations accrue on transition e.g. from left to right corner (or vis versa) that are not far apart. For example the LMP2 is close to the GT3 in the left hander and will make the move on the short straight between the corners or in the following right hander.
Option A the LMP2 is so close that he passes left on the exit of the left turn, then the GT3 should help that they go into the following right hander behind each other, not side by side with the GT3 on the inside, that would cost both more time than it should.
Option B LMP2 is not close enough and makes the move after the exit of the left hander, than he obv. wants the inside line for the right hander. So the LMP2 wants the GT3 car to move over to the left, so he can pass on the right and go into the right turn on the inside.

Here it is important that the GT3 reacts accordingly and either moves over like the race line to the left quick (option B) or waits before he moves over to the left preventing to push the LMP2 on this left off track (option A).

 

[The Hunter]

Just as stated in the rules, I prefer slower GT's to hold their line so it's easier to predict where and when to make a safe pass.

I've had a couple of times that I was trailing a GT3 through a corner and on corner exit they just pulled towards the inside where I wanted to go to overtake them. Which resulted in me having to slam the brake to not make contact and lose a lot more time in the process.

So lower gt's should just stick to the racing line as much as possible to make the life of lmp2's a lot easier.

 

[Tom]

Here it is important that the GT3 reacts accordingly and either moves over like the race line to the left quick (option B) or waits before he moves over to the left preventing to push the LMP2 on this left off track (option A).

...and never lifting off the throttle on corner exit, bad things happen. Even worse if they move across on corner exit as well

 

[Col_McCoy]

I have to say, these Options Miagi describes is exactly the run towards the Carroussell... and I have seen some very good GT3 driving from a few of you yesterday night, clearly stating the intention where your car is going to be... but as said, it needs to be soon and decisive otherwise a lot of trouble can come from it

 

[miagi]

One additional advise as the long text above is mostly a guideline for the slower class.
For the faster car it is important to send out clear messages, and I don't mean over TS.
Example 1, if LMP2 wants to go thru a corner behind the GT3, the LMP2 should stay in the slipsteam and don't go onto overtaking line before the corner,
because Example 2 if you want to dive, go out of the slip stream early enough, then the GT3 will understand it and open the inside.

Also with the previos example of left to right corner. As LMP2, either pass left quickly or stay on the right edge of the track and hope the GT3 car moves left so that you have the inside of the right turn.

From my experience at Fuji, if you're to far away for "Option A", don't get put by the GT3 onto the outside of the right hander, it is really no use, for both of you. Also risk is there that the GT3 car will push you off track at the exit of the right hander. My advise, stay on the right edge of the track after the left hander and wait patiently for the GT3 to move over to the left and pass on the inside of the right turn.

 

[Darksi]

Example 1, if LMP2 wants to go thru a corner behind the GT3, the LMP2 should stay in the slipsteam and don't go onto overtaking line before the corner,
because Example 2 if you want to dive, go out of the slip stream early enough, then the GT3 will understand it and open the inside.

As a GT driver this is what i tend to use as a sign of the LMP intentions, if they sit behind me i know they wait till after corner to make pass, and if they pull out i know they are going for the inside of the corner so i adjust accordingly to leave room. So it does work without both classes losing to much time, as at end of day as miagi mentioned, both classes are racing for time and position.

Very rarely in these races have i had to lift or even break earlier to let an LMP passed at most it is adjust corner entry /exit to allow for the extra car there.

 

[Jonno]

@Freak Superman and @Ranjanado guys i must apologize for you guys getting caught up in my spin. I tried to warn @Freak Superman as i just caught a glimps of you coming round the corner and if my mic was bloody on it may of been a diffrent story and freak tried to anticipate were i would stop but unfortunately he judged it wrong and poor old @Ranjanado was an innocent bystander in this one. Least you guys could carry on tho o supose thats one saving grace .i was stuck on my roof lol (ne reset button for me)
 

My apologies to Jonno for the bump during the formation lap!! Just got a little confused and lost in the dark during the start. Back to induction for me. I'm going to pull out of most competitive ranked events until I get my head in the right place. I think doing the induction will help with my confidence and all!! two races and two not so good incidents. Don't really think I want a third

Ranj mate a bump in formation was nothing compared to what came next lol

 

[SBart_uk]

Other than the first few laps the race went pretty well for me. I had decided to push pretty hard for the first 2 laps and try to escape from the rest so I could settle into a rhythm and put some decent times in. This didn't happen.... PD was ultra fast down the straights and in trying to get a good run onto the main straight on lap 2 I put the power down a bit too early and the hot Softs couldn't take it so I understeered off onto the curb which allowed @ProjectPD past.

Sitting behind him there was nothing I could do with the lack of downforce in the dirty air and his speed on the straights he escaped from me pretty quickly. I had expected I may have to forfeit the first stint as I wasn't very happy on the softs in the first few laps in practice but it was going to get way to cold for softs pretty quickly. So I thought I'd just try and be as consistent as possible then have a good go at him later in the race when i was much more comfortable and faster.

A few laps later as I was alongside a gt3 before the last corner they tagged me and I got a bit out of shape as had he and then he got me again as he was recoving sending me into a half spin and (lucky only) getting 1 front aero damage. I hadn't noticed PD had lost it just before all that had happened for the next lap or two when I wondered where he was after seeing I was in P1.

From this point on I thought its all about not crashing now and was pretty chilled for the rest of the first stint. Then it was the pitstops and somehow I knew @Puffpirat wouldn't change tyres but didn't expect the time advantage it gave him (around 15s?). I thought it would be around 10 secs so to see him exit pretty much directly after me gave me a bit of a freight. Then I knew I better get on it straight away and use the grip of the new tyres. I think I had the clearest laps of the race after the pitstop so managed to pull away.

Then I just had to get to the end to take the win.
As for overtaking the gt3's you pretty quickly got an idea of who was aware of what was going on around them and who was totally oblivious (of which there were one or two) meaning you needed to be extra careful. But overall it wasn't too much trouble getting past them maybe just a little frustrating sometimes but I guess that's the nature of multiclass racing and makes a nice/fun and exciting change.

Very happy to win and glad (after Spa) as I put in a fair amount of practice for this one. Now to decided if I do Le-Mans as its one of my most hated tracks on the game with it being one of the great classics that has now been ruined with silly chicanes for "safety". I expect I will though as I enjoyed the longer race, I'll just have to find a way to make Le-Mans fun

Here's my POV, Sadly I was switching between watching stuff and practicing with headphones before the race which screwed up my audio on OBS so there is no sound and youtube seems to have cut Qually & the first 15 mins off for some reason. Hopefully it will appear at some point.

 

[UnstopaPaul]

who has the right of way? LMP or GT?

Ignoring the lapping thing for a moment. Standard rule is "if the rear car is front wheel to back wheel then the front car needs to respect the line of the catching car. Ofc that works great with cars approx same speed. Problem is an LMP2 can make that gap really quickly under braking.

As a GT driver this is what i tend to use as a sign of the LMP intentions, if they sit behind me i know they wait till after corner to make pass, and if they pull out i know they are going for the inside of the corner so i adjust accordingly to leave room. So it does work without both classes losing to much time, as at end of day as miagi mentioned, both classes are racing for time and position.

Very rarely in these races have i had to lift or even break earlier to let an LMP passed at most it is adjust corner entry /exit to allow for the extra car there.

This was my first MC race. My general experience was that the GT3s were very considerate (only one "helpeful" incident where a GT3 pulled straight across track to "let me have the line"). I thought the GT3 standard was excellent overall, and most made very clear their intentions, with only a few picking "middle for diddle".

I've watched enough Jimmy Broadbent to know how frustrating it can look to an LMP car trying to pass a GT3. Equally I can be reasonably certain (without actually having done it) that GT3 cars can easily feel bullied by an LMP coming through on the braking zone (in the same way that cars complain about motorbikes, and motorbikes complain about cars).

I actually think that racing multi-class almost merits its own induction process, where each racer is required to understand the track from both points of view (to answer @AndrexUK , no, I've never driven a GT3 on the track before, so I didn't understand what a GT3 would or would not do for at least the first hour). It might even cover off a more coherent etiquette for multi-class racing (could be worth clarified guidance in the RSR conduct guidelines). For example, I think I heard elsewhere (Real life maybe?) that "Pass on the left" was the etiquette for RA. Either way I'd happy put myself through an induction process before taking on another multi-class event.

 

[Jamesl91]

I actually think that racing multi-class almost merits its own induction process, where each racer is required to understand the track from both points of view

I disagree with that Paul, I think simply people should make use of our servers(when not in use) and practice in multiplayer sessions, this allows you to practice together and get an understanding of multi-class racing.

 

[Puffpirat]

That’s actually a big part of it. In iRacing I’m mostly in the slower classes eg GTE on daytona, while I’m always in the faster class in pCARS. I can remember all to well complaining about dbag DP drivers while being the dbag in pCARS myself

It’s only human but you have to step back a bit and accept your race will be compromised in multiclass. Towards the end we all found our rhythm and lapping was smooth. The first hour was a bit hectic.

Edit: James your post came in between. I agree it’s not necessary to having driven both classes, more a thing of general practice and most important making your intentions clear. When I went on the inside of a corner not once did a gt car shut the door. That how it should be and how both classes lose the least amount of time. There are just two places on RA that are really tricky and that are the kink and the fast right hander 3 corners before. One of which caught me out so I’m no saint either

 

[miagi]

That’s actually a big part of it. In iRacing im mostly in the slower classes eg GTE on daytona, while I’m always in the faster class in pCARS. I can remember all to well complaining about dbag DP drivers while being the dbag in pCARS myself

So that is the true reason why you don't do so much iracing any more

 

[AndrexUK]

I think some of the issue may be a combination of things.
Some ppl look at the driver ahead, and feel confident they know what is going on, and that you can go side by side, and so go for it.
Other might not.
Also, some may have higher 'acceptable risk' levels than others.
For me, as far as I'm concerned, the LMP2 car is probably 90-95% in control of the move (It's easier for the LMP2 to back out of it, can take different lines through corners), the GT car shouldn't really have to compromise much at all.
Passes don't really need to be done in the corner, they should be done long enough before, or after it.
If I was an LMP2 driver, I would hate myself for making contact with a GT driver (It's me that want's past, He is minding his own business. So I would need to be VERY sure I could pass before the corner, or that I know the driver well enough that we can both cope with going 2x2.
If it costs me a second to sit behind someone, then so be it - it will happen to everyone. But then you have others that don't have the same approach, and gain time on you, because they just go for it.

It's a difficult balance (and quite hard for the first rounds of lapping to get your eye in on the speed difference).

 

[UnstopaPaul]

I disagree with that Paul, I think simply people should make use of our servers(when not in use) and practice in multiplayer sessions, this allows you to practice together and get an understanding of multi-class racing.

I'm not suggesting for every track! . Just taking one track and seeing it from both sides will provide an "appreciation benefit". And those with more experience than others can guide on good behaviour. I for one am not actually sure that what I thought was "respectful" actually appeared that way from the GT3 point of view. It's just a suggestion that I feel would improve overall stability
 

the GT car shouldn't really have to compromise much at all

For the first hour I really didn't realise that the GT3 cars probably could not adjust line on the carousel. Now I know!

 

[Jamesl91]

I'm not suggesting for every track! . Just taking one track and seeing it from both sides will provide an "appreciation benefit". And those with more experience than others can guide on good behaviour. I for one am not actually sure that what I thought was "respectful" actually appeared that way from the GT3 point of view. It's just a suggestion that I feel would improve overall stability
 

For the first hour I really didn't realise that the GT3 cars probably could not adjust line on the carousel. Now I know!

Its the Multi-class induction idea i disagree with. I do think the LMP drivers should atleast Drive a GT to understand how slow they are in comparison. As for the getting the experience pre race of mutli class racing, this should be done in practice sessions as it will allow every class to get used to it.