Project CARS 2 R2: Sonoma Raceway Short (3 Viewers)

[steveg200]

Everybody has there own opinion that is fine. What I said is I wouldn't have made that move that Manu made due to the high chance of contact.I was in front when I started to turn towards the apex so in my opinion Manu should have backed out but he couldn't even if he wanted to due to the excessive speed he was carrying. If I am wrong then I am wrong .

 

[m4nu]

Everybody has there own opinion that is fine. What I said is I wouldn't have made that move that Manu made due to the high chance of contact.I was in front when I started to turn towards the apex so in my opinion Manu should have backed out but he couldn't even if he wanted to due to the excessive speed he was carrying. If I am wrong then I am wrong .

As @Corentin_Bergès said, the third contact you ignore your own red arrows indicating a car next to you. I felt the same with our incident. Before I am able to turn into the corner I got already hit.

Same move, 2nd race against @cpcdem. He leaves me room and nothing happens (and stays in front):

 

[FuBii]

Disclaimer: Everything in this post is purely my own opinion & does not count in a court of law;

You guys should try racing against some of the current competition in the midfield....
The entire start of the first lap was beautifully clean from you both. perfect example of sportsmanship & giving each other space.

Opportunistic move into the hairpin that should have been expected but the door was wide open for it.
Harsh move that placed all the trust on @steveg200 to give space/ back out. I will say that you brake a good few metres before I would for that corner (on the actual white line)

@ProjectPD likely had no time to correct/ react to the situation & I'd label racing incident.

The third contact, I'd say emotion had taken over & steve lost focus/ awareness of what was happening around him to not realise @UnstopaPaul was alongside.

Be thankful our stewards aren't from F1.

Gotta agree with @Corentin_Bergès. all that fuss for trading paintwork... I was expecting something more catastrophic like the contact between cpc & felix.

 

[steveg200]

All this drama for that ?
Omg. My opinion :
Initial contact was racing incident (not to say partially your fault).
Second was not your fault.
Third...wtf ? There was a red arrow and you just ram (@UnstopaPaul i think ?) and then lost it.

I didn't like (personnal view) hearing you cry so much for that (and ragequitting, just not respectful for other people here) after your two second places at Zolder. Shit happens, to everyone, and if were all behaving like you were, nobody would be still racing at the 3rd race of a season.

As @Corentin_Bergès said, the third contact you ignore your own red arrows indicating a car next to you. I felt the same with our incident. Before I am able to turn into the corner I got already hit.

Same move, 2nd race against @cpcdem. He leaves me room and nothing happens:

Yes your right the third contact was entirely my fault for which I apologise to @UnstopaPaul and deserve a very strong penalty

Post automatically merged: Jun 28, 2019

Disclaimer: Everything in this post is purely my own opinion & does not count in a court of law;

You guys should try racing against some of the current competition in the midfield....
The entire start of the first lap was beautifully clean from you both. perfect example of sportsmanship & giving each other space.

Opportunistic move into the hairpin that should have been expected but the door was wide open for it.
Harsh move that placed all the trust on @steveg200 to give space/ back out. I will say that you brake a good few metres before I would for that corner (on the actual white line)

@ProjectPD likely had no time to correct/ react to the situation & I'd label racing incident.

The third contact, I'd say emotion had taken over & steve lost focus/ awareness of what was happening around him to not realise @UnstopaPaul was alongside.

Be thankful our stewards aren't from F1.

Gotta agree with @Corentin_Bergès. all that fuss for trading paintwork... I was expecting something more catastrophic like the contact between cpc & felix.

You say all that fuss for trading paintwork. In my opinion there should never be contact or trading paintwork between drivers unless one has made a mistake.

 

[Puffpirat]

Instead of handing out a penalty I’d appreciate if you’d consider not quitting the league prematurely and, if there is a next time, pop a beer and consult a steward if necessary.

If this would be a case I’d hand out a reprimand for Manu, for the sole reason I don’t deem him alongside before initiating the move. That said I wouldn’t hand out a penalty because he made the move clear very early by going to the right and manages to stop the car at the apex. Something what’s normally not the case with a classic dive bomb.

You could have defended/reacted better by braking in a straight line towards the apex, bit left of it, to force Manu over the kerb, which would’ve killed his momentum and give you the opportunity to out drag him onto the back “straight”. The way you turn in rapidly, while Manu is forcing the gap, you force the contact.

 

[m4nu]

You say all that fuss for trading paintwork. In my opinion there should never be contact or trading paintwork between drivers unless one has made a mistake.

Yes but you have to face reality. 31 Clios on a race track, none of us is a pro driver. To think there is no contact in 40 minutes of pure racing is really ambitious. Not saying I want contact, but sometimes it is not inevitable as in our rules stated:

• 1.1.2 - You should, at all times, try to avoid any intentional contact during our events. We understand that a degree of contact is inevitable but, this must always be kept to a minimum, even if you have to compromise your race to do so.

On a side note, if UnstopaPaul is not raising anything against you regarding your contact no penalty is needed here. It is UnstopaPaul's duty to decide if we should take a look into this or not. The same procedure occurs to EVERY incidents in any RSR events.

The same way our little contact could have been handled...

 

[UnstopaPaul]

Ignoring most of the above...

I've actually learned quite a lot about defending through this race. Like safe blue flag passing requires predictability, so it appears does defending, as well as some decent anticipation. I learned the hard way in race 2 that not taking a defensive line at the right time can lead to losing 3 or 4 places in quick succession. Equally, I saw some great preemptive defending that I only realised after the fact was "safe" even if I had gone for the under-over. It definitely doesn't make me a master, but I did appreciate the lesson given to me as I dropped from 1st to 5th. Making your defensive line clear helps discourage those 50/50% attempts....as long as you don't end up sacrificing your line too much ofc.

I hope to learn more from everyone next race.

P

 

[steveg200]

Instead of handing out a penalty I’d appreciate if you’d consider not quitting the league prematurely and, if there is a next time, pop a beer and consult a steward if necessary.

If this would be a case I’d hand out a reprimand for Manu, for the sole reason I don’t deem him alongside before initiating the move. That said I wouldn’t hand out a penalty because he made the move clear very early by going to the right and manages to stop the car at the apex. Something what’s normally not the case with a classic dive bomb.

You could have defended/reacted better by braking in a straight line towards the apex, bit left of it, to force Manu over the kerb, which would’ve killed his momentum and give you the opportunity to out drag him onto the back “straight”. The way you turn in rapidly, while Manu is forcing the gap, you force the contact.

Thanks Puffy for your input which is much appreciated .It looks as though I was in the wrong in closing the gap to Manu and forcing the contact between us ,so I would like to apologise to @t0daY for doing that . Also I would like to apologise to everybody else for all the fuss I made .Hopefully I didn't make anyone crash due to me leaving the server when I rage quit.I will carry on if that's ok with @t0daY as you say none of us are professionals so contact is probably going to happen at some point. Sorry again to @UnstopaPaul for the contact which you should put in to the stewards .

 

[kobusnell]

Instead of handing out a penalty I’d appreciate if you’d consider not quitting the league prematurely and, if there is a next time, pop a beer and consult a steward if necessary.

If this would be a case I’d hand out a reprimand for Manu, for the sole reason I don’t deem him alongside before initiating the move. That said I wouldn’t hand out a penalty because he made the move clear very early by going to the right and manages to stop the car at the apex. Something what’s normally not the case with a classic dive bomb.

You could have defended/reacted better by braking in a straight line towards the apex, bit left of it, to force Manu over the kerb, which would’ve killed his momentum and give you the opportunity to out drag him onto the back “straight”. The way you turn in rapidly, while Manu is forcing the gap, you force the contact.

I'd like to understand this better. I had a couple of similar incidents where I was the guy in front.

I also don't consider Manu to be next to Steve. Looking at driving standards 1.1.2 and 1.2.1, does the responsibility not fall on Manu to ensure that the situation is contact free? As the car in front (and thus, as I understand it, 1.3 is not valid here) why should it be expected of Steve to adjust his line to avoid contact?

I had to do this to avoid contact a couple of times. Note, not when a car is next to you, but where a car charges to the corner, and thus making me the only one being able to manipulate the situation to avoid contact. Is this fair? Even if I did avoid contact and managed to stay in front, no my run out of the corner is severely compromised.

Without aiming this at anyone, I get the impression that the clio instills a lot of confidence, where possible contact is okay because the cars are relatively durable. There is definitely more bumping and rubbing when compared to other RSR races I've taken part in.

Forgive me for doing this, but the following has stuck in my head ever since it was written. The reality is contact is rarely controlled, and rarely fair.

Can we please go away from this "Even F1 professionals crashing as well" please? That does not justify anything. Rule 1.1.2 of RSR Driving Standards:

• 1.1.2 - You should, at all times, try to avoid any intentional contact during our events. We understand that a degree of contact is inevitable but, this must always be kept to a minimum, even if you have to compromise your race to do so.

If my post is better removed, please do so. I'm not trying to point a finger at anyone, I'm just trying to understand what the reasoning is, and what the consensus is. I guess ultimately that sets the bar for what acceptable moves are?

 

[m4nu]

I also don't consider Manu to be next to Steve. Looking at driving standards 1.1.2 and 1.2.1, does the responsibility not fall on Manu to ensure that the situation is contact free? As the car in front (and thus, as I understand it, 1.3 is not valid here) why should it be expected of Steve to adjust his line to avoid contact?

For me it reads like you are asking for a free pass of the cars in the front and when they make contact they can argue: "The car behind me has the responsibility". Does not work for me if I am honest. Always both drivers should have the responsibility, not only one.

 

[Jonno]

It pains me to be the voice of sencible..but this conversation should be conducted via pm not across the public fourms..
(((Aaagghhhhh im melting immm meeeeellltttiiinngggg)))

 

[m4nu]

It pains me to be the voice of sencible..but this conversation should be conducted via pm not across the public fourms..
(((Aaagghhhhh im melting immm meeeeellltttiiinngggg)))

I allowed this conversation in this thread. No need to moderate it @Jonno

 

[Jonno]

I allowed this conversation in this thread. No need to moderate it @Jonno

Fair enough and heres me being sencible for once lol

 

[Puffpirat]

It pains me to be the voice of sencible..but this conversation should be conducted via pm not across the public fourms..
(((Aaagghhhhh im melting immm meeeeellltttiiinngggg)))

This comment is at least a few hours late

Everyone is calm and we have a sensible conversation about race craft imho.

 

[m4nu]

This comment is at least a few hours late

True, temps are already enjoyable again here

 

[Jonno]

This comment is at least a few hours late

Everyone is calm and we have a sensible conversation about race craft imho.

Cant knock me for being sencible for once tho lol

 

[m4nu]

Cant knock me for being sencible for once tho lol

All good! If I wouldn't allowed it, it would have been the right call mate - But from time to time we can talk a little bit about racecraft, analyzing incidents and learn from it, at least I am open to learn something

 

[Jonno]

, at least I am open to learn something

LOL

 

[Puffpirat]

Forgive me for doing this, but the following has stuck in my head ever since it was written. The reality is contact is rarely controlled, and rarely fair.

This part is obviously not in the rules to encourage contact but we also can’t penalize each and every situation where paint is exchanged. That won’t happen in real racing and we additional have to account for ping, lag and our drivers not being paid professionals. We do distinguish between error and intention though.

I'd like to understand this better. I had a couple of similar incidents where I was the guy in front.

I also don't consider Manu to be next to Steve. Looking at driving standards 1.1.2 and 1.2.1, does the responsibility not fall on Manu to ensure that the situation is contact free? As the car in front (and thus, as I understand it, 1.3 is not valid here) why should it be expected of Steve to adjust his line to avoid contact?

I had to do this to avoid contact a couple of times. Note, not when a car is next to you, but where a car charges to the corner, and thus making me the only one being able to manipulate the situation to avoid contact. Is this fair? Even if I did avoid contact and managed to stay in front, no my run out of the corner is severely compromised.

Without aiming this at anyone, I get the impression that the clio instills a lot of confidence, where possible contact is okay because the cars are relatively durable. There is definitely more bumping and rubbing when compared to other RSR races I've taken part in.

The Clio definitely adds to the situation. You have to make something happen to get an overtaking opportunity.

I also analyzed this situation regarding our rules. Strictly speaking, and that’s why I said reprimand, Manu isn’t alongside. But racing isn’t black and white.

If he’d made a later lunge and/or not shown the overtaking attempt early resulting in him hitting Steve, opposed to what happened here, it would have been a penalty.

Yes it can be frustrating to compromise the line but sometimes you have to cover yourself or show early on you will defend the apex. We wanted close non aero dependent racing and the Clio delivers that.

That said we don’t allow or want to see block passing. If you’re the car behind trying to overtake and you can’t commit to the apex, back out of it, then it’s no overtaking opportunity.

 

[kobusnell]

For me it reads like you are asking for a free pass of the cars in the front and when they make contact they can argue: "The car behind me has the responsibility". Does not work for me if I am honest. Always both drivers should have the responsibility, not only one.

Obviously 1.1.2 counts for everyone, and it falls ons everyone to avoid contact. Somehow, however, one must be able to determine whether both contributed their fair share towards avoiding contact. That is what I'm trying to understand.

But I think I understand it better. I maybe could have intro'd with remember who is posting this, someone with much less experience. Thank you for allowing the conversation, it think it sheds valuable light.

Post automatically merged: Jun 28, 2019

This part is obviously not in the rules to encourage contact but we also can’t penalize each and every situation where paint is exchanged. That won’t happen in real racing and we additional have to account for ping, lag and our drivers not being paid professionals. We do distinguish between error and intention though.



The Clio definitely adds to the situation. You have to make something happen to get an overtaking opportunity.

I also analyzed this situation regarding our rules. Strictly speaking, and that’s why I said reprimand, Manu isn’t alongside. But racing isn’t black and white.

If he’d made a later lunge and/or not shown the overtaking attempt early resulting in him hitting Steve, opposed to what happened here, it would have been a penalty.

Yes it can be frustrating to compromise the line but sometimes you have to cover yourself or show early on you will defend the apex. We wanted close non aero dependent racing and the Clio delivers that.

That said we don’t allow or want to see block passing. If you’re the car behind trying to overtake and you can’t commit to the apex, back out of it, then it’s no overtaking opportunity.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the detailed answer. It helps having the grayer parts explained!