Project CARS 2 R2: Sonoma Raceway Short (2 Viewers)

[cpcdem]

Let me give another sample, in the video below, the white car is clearly behind the red car, brakes later than the usual braking point and after the apex is side by side to the red car. The red car in order to avoid the collision does not turn until very late in the corner, allowing both the white car and also another car behind it to overtake.

Is this a legitimate overtake? Was the red car allowed to go for the normal racing line (and obviously having a collision), since he was clearly in front before the braking point, instead of backing out of it? Or the only defense in this situation is to take a line completely to the right to avoid such a move from the car behind?

Not looking to putting blame or anyone, just academic conversation to be sure what's allowed and what not, because of course different clubs have different rules, same as in real life, so I know how to battle in the next races.

 

[Corentin_Bergès]

Let me give another sample, in the video below, the white car is clearly behind the red car, brakes later than the usual braking point and after the apex is side by side to the red car. The red car in order to avoid the collision does not turn until very late in the corner, allowing both the white car and also another car behind it to overtake.

Is this a legitimate overtake? Was the red car allowed to go for the normal racing line (and obviously having a collision), since he was clearly in front before the braking point, instead of backing out of it? Or the only defense in this situation is to take a line completely to the right to avoid such a move from the car behind?

Not looking to putting blame or anyone, just academic conversation to be sure what's allowed and what not, because of course different clubs have different rules, same as in real life, so I know how to battle in the next races.

For me, this move is 100% legit, i've seen it a lot in IRL races and it's why if you don't want to be overtaken like that you close the door before the braking

 

[m4nu]

Later on the brakes, no contact, solid move in my opinion. Obviously you overtake differently in the Formula Renault 3.5 and a small little Clio. You have to make moves on the braking with the clio, no chance to out accelerate someone with this little toy or using any kind of draft.

I mean otherwise you really have to forbid overtaking for this season...

 

[Taorminator]

I'd like to understand this better. I had a couple of similar incidents where I was the guy in front.

I also don't consider Manu to be next to Steve. Looking at driving standards 1.1.2 and 1.2.1, does the responsibility not fall on Manu to ensure that the situation is contact free? As the car in front (and thus, as I understand it, 1.3 is not valid here) why should it be expected of Steve to adjust his line to avoid contact?

I had to do this to avoid contact a couple of times. Note, not when a car is next to you, but where a car charges to the corner, and thus making me the only one being able to manipulate the situation to avoid contact. Is this fair? Even if I did avoid contact and managed to stay in front, no my run out of the corner is severely compromised.

Without aiming this at anyone, I get the impression that the clio instills a lot of confidence, where possible contact is okay because the cars are relatively durable. There is definitely more bumping and rubbing when compared to other RSR races I've taken part in.

Forgive me for doing this, but the following has stuck in my head ever since it was written. The reality is contact is rarely controlled, and rarely fair.


If my post is better removed, please do so. I'm not trying to point a finger at anyone, I'm just trying to understand what the reasoning is, and what the consensus is. I guess ultimately that sets the bar for what acceptable moves are?

Guys, I watching this from far away and I just wanted to share my opinion :
1) Remember we are here for having fun. The revolution cup is really a "chocolate" cup, you are not fighting for your seat next year or a 10000€ prize money. The biggest achievement you can get is the ultimate satifaction of finishing on the podium in a race where all aliens have taken each other out. That means please put things into perspective : there is really NO stakes here other than ensuring YOU spend a good night, have fun and feel the thrill of close racing. What I want is fights. Fair fights. I don't care if I finish P15, I prefer this than spending a race alone in P5. I remember Zuhai in the wet where I spinned and climbed from last to p10, when I went to sleep I couldn't because I was still overexcited by the awesomeness of the race. This is what I seek at RSR
2) How do you ensure everybody can live that experience? Create rules and behaviour standards that are built around RESPECT. And the staff does a very good job offering this to you. Your responsibilty (as you would in society) is to apply that same level of respect to yourself. In the heat of the moment you don't think about if rule1.1.2.6.x applies or not. Instead you behave according to your general experience and all the great good practices you agreed to apply and respect for the oponnent. Yes sometimes people make mistakes because they are people but I will never blame somebody who comes after the race and apologize. This is because he shows respect and therefore deserves respect back. We had a great fight but ended in the gravel? "Thanks gor the fight mate, be more careful next time". Contact is 95% bad risk evaluation. My personal view is that inductions did a great job at putting this in mind of the new comers. I want it back (because it was fun) but that s not the subject. Lack of respect from one driver usually makes 10 grumpy drivers let s remind that. I got to learn many people here are the crushing majority are top blokes. So let's behave like top blokes guys please bang my door (not my back door you silly) but do it with respect

 

[Corentin_Bergès]

Guys, I watching this from far away and I just wanted to share my opinion :
1) Remember we are here for having fun. The revolution cup is really a "chocolate" cup, you are not fighting for your seat next year or a 10000€ prize money. The biggest achievement you can get is the ultimate satifaction of finishing on the podium in a race where all aliens have taken each other out. That means please put things into perspective : there is really NO stakes here other than ensuring YOU spend a good night, have fun and feel the thrill of close racing. What I want is fights. Fair fights. I don't care if I finish P15, I prefer this than spending a race alone in P5. I remember Zuhai in the wet where I spinned and climbed from last to p10, when I went to sleep I couldn't because I was still overexcited by the awesomeness of the race. This is what I seek at RSR
2) How do you ensure everybody can live that experience? Create rules and behaviour standards that are built around RESPECT. And the staff does a very good job offering this to you. Your responsibilty (as you would in society) is to apply that same level of respect to yourself. In the heat of the moment you don't think about if rule1.1.2.6.x applies or not. Instead you behave according to your general experience and all the great good practices you agreed to apply and respect for the oponnent. Yes sometimes people make mistakes because they are people but I will never blame somebody who comes after the race and apologize. This is because he shows respect and therefore deserves respect back. We had a great fight but ended in the gravel? "Thanks gor the fight mate, be more careful next time". Contact is 95% bad risk evaluation. My personal view is that inductions did a great job at putting this in mind of the new comers. I want it back (because it was fun) but that s not the subject. Lack of respect from one driver usually makes 10 grumpy drivers let s remind that. I got to learn many people here are the crushing majority are top blokes. So let's behave like top blokes guys please bang my door (not my back door you silly) but do it with respect

YOU should remember STICKOS team is fighting for ETERNAL GLORY !

I agree with you though

 

[UnstopaPaul]

Let me give another sample, in the video below, the white car is clearly behind the red car, brakes later than the usual braking point and after the apex is side by side to the red car. The red car in order to avoid the collision does not turn until very late in the corner, allowing both the white car and also another car behind it to overtake.

Is this a legitimate overtake? Was the red car allowed to go for the normal racing line (and obviously having a collision), since he was clearly in front before the braking point, instead of backing out of it? Or the only defense in this situation is to take a line completely to the right to avoid such a move from the car behind?

Not looking to putting blame or anyone, just academic conversation to be sure what's allowed and what not, because of course different clubs have different rules, same as in real life, so I know how to battle in the next races.

For me (as said above) I think the learning here is that red could have gone defensive early if they were worried about the half move. There are 2 ways to be safe here. How red did it (stay predictable and wide) or to close the door early before the move is thought about. On this corner you would loose a little time, but if planned rather than last minute defense you should still come out ahead I think. So much learning at this race.

 

[cpcdem]

For me (as said above) I think the learning here is that red could have gone defensive early if they were worried about the half move. There are 2 ways to be safe here. How red did it (stay predictable and wide) or to close the door early before the move is thought about. On this corner you would loose a little time, but if planned rather than last minute defense you should still come out ahead I think. So much learning at this race.

OK, thanks for your and everybody's replies! Yeah, I am fine about this, was just asking because personally I avoid making moves like that, because I know that if the guy ahead follows his normal racing line, then it's gonna be an accident. But since that move is fine, I will be doing this myself as well in the future. I do realize that without some risk, there's hardly any overtaking with those cars.

 

[UnstopaPaul]

OK, thanks for your and everybody's replies! Yeah, I am fine about this, was just asking because personally I avoid making moves like that, because I know that if the guy ahead follows his normal racing line, then it's gonna be an accident. But since that move is fine, I will be doing this myself as well in the future. I do realize that without some risk, there's hardly any overtaking with those cars.

I should say (as will others) that it's also about knowing the driver in front of you before you decide to go for it. How do they react? do they always close the door regardless? Are they skittish and prone to spook when you sneak alongside? All worth considering. Also...do you need to pass now? or can you convince him to go offline keep your own good line and exit. These cars do seem to allow a little more time to consider the options

 

[cpcdem]

Well, ok, but we need to have a rule of thumb if something is allowed or not, I think it should not depend on if the other driver is open to such moves or not. Because if the other driver allows such passes, but is denied his own when he tries to do the same thing, then in the next time he will change his own behavior as well.

Btw, I absolutely agree it should always be about respecting each other and racing respectfully. But for some people what they consider too much may be perfectly respectful for others, so I think it's good to have some rules of thumb.

 

[UnstopaPaul]

Well,

last night was rather different from the week before. Yes there were some bumps and scrapes (both given and received), but overall a significantly more enjoyable experience. Sonoma is a little unforgiving to particular mistakes and I was lucky enough to profit from it a little.

Qualifying:
Super stoked to have managed 5th on the grid, though looking at the final results I think I could genuinely have made second on the grid if I'd brought it all together. It all worked out however...

Race 1:
As usual I got a pretty weak start of the line. I'm going to have to sort that out for next race. Conceding one position on corner 1, and only just holding on the next. I wasn't prepared to be as defensive as needed going up the hill. My mistake for not thinking the start through in advance. Settling in, and finding myself in a slight bubble between the leaders and the pack behind I kept out of trouble (mostly). I got lucky in the well-discussed slalom down the hill. Having given the room I could I was fortunately not really put off line by the come-together with Steve (honestly, in review I think @steveg200's car just unsettled when he comes back on, having just taken a couple of knocks). Surviving this I watched @t0daY clipping the tretcherous soil, so was actually happy to not have been those few metres further ahead.

Tucking in behind the top 4 I watched a great show as @Corentin_Bergès , @Puffpirat and @Fe1ixS swapped places several times, allowing me to catch up. Again, not having quite caught up was a benefit when I think @Corentin_Bergès and @Puffpirat came together. coming down the hill to T4 (or is it 5?), allowing me an easy ride into P3. Again, @Fe1ixS and @cpcdem were battling hard ahead and I got a good show as I caught them slowly. @cpcdem seemed to struggle for pace slightly as the race went on, but was defending well, before they eventually came together. Honestly, with one lap left I thought I was passing into first place and the lead, so was really surprised to find that @cpcdem had managed to hold his car and stayed on track. Perhaps if I had been more aggresive and aware he was still in the fight I might have defended the final hairpin. We sprinted to the end and last lap, last corner he defended well. I got a slightly better pull out of the corner and the final finish is really only a metre in it. Great race all told, but oh so close!

Race 2:
Starting from 2nd I got the jump on @cpcdem at"green green green" call. I was concerned that I'd actually jumped the start, but reviewing I think @cpcdem was too cautious off the start. I remember doing the same with my first ever pole.

I held the lead for about 5 laps, but @CatchAGlimpse was in beast-mode behind and never more that half a second behind. Eventually I succumbed in a lack of experience. Really I should have conceded the place at a point of my chosing, instead I ended up having to compromise my line coming down the essses, and ended up bleeding more than one place.

There were a couple more hairy moments in the race, my favourite being the straight before the final hairpin where 2 cars bumped and lost momentum. Having nowhere to go but between them we ended up in an accidental 3 wide. I did take a knock going through the corner, but not really suprising I guess, but we all survived it, something I love about these Clio cars.

Moving from 6th to 4th took another 3 wide moment, very similar to the previous. @Corentin_Bergès and @Elodyr had a bump together at T4. Again with too much speed I took a brave(?) decision to go through the middle of two cars in the middle of power slides. Not guts no glory right? From there I managed to barely hold off @Elodyr as he caught me for the last lap. I'm not sure I would have held on for another! 4th place in the long race was pretty pleasing given the full turnout.

My POV

 

[Stokemon]

Warning NSFW language used after an incident that should be more controversial than what has mostly been discussed (49:20). But the stewards and private messages have sorted and put it to bed.

 

[Stokemon]

I should also say there are some good battles in there. Particularly @Elodyr in the first race.

 

[CatchAGlimpse]

I really enjoyed this round - struggled throughout practice so was just aiming for top 10 finishes. Qualifying didn't go well ending up 12th. Made a good start in the first race and made up various positions due to people in front having incidents ending up 3rd overall. Had so much fun battling @Corentin_Bergès throughout the race. Race two I felt much stronger and managed to battle in top 5 throughout the race. Felt I was on pace with PD and Puffy but was they were out of the slipstream they disappeared a few seconds up the road. So many great battles with @Elodyr @UnstopaPaul @Corentin_Bergès in particular

I've uploaded the replay footage from the roof view (so the action can be seen) for both races below and a @Corentin_Bergès special.

R1

R2:

Bonus:

 

[Corentin_Bergès]

Well,

last night was rather different from the week before. Yes there were some bumps and scrapes (both given and received), but overall a significantly more enjoyable experience. Sonoma is a little unforgiving to particular mistakes and I was lucky enough to profit from it a little.

Qualifying:
Super stoked to have managed 5th on the grid, though looking at the final results I think I could genuinely have made second on the grid if I'd brought it all together. It all worked out however...

Race 1:
As usual I got a pretty weak start of the line. I'm going to have to sort that out for next race. Conceding one position on corner 1, and only just holding on the next. I wasn't prepared to be as defensive as needed going up the hill. My mistake for not thinking the start through in advance. Settling in, and finding myself in a slight bubble between the leaders and the pack behind I kept out of trouble (mostly). I got lucky in the well-discussed slalom down the hill. Having given the room I could I was fortunately not really put off line by the come-together with Steve (honestly, in review I think @steveg200's car just unsettled when he comes back on, having just taken a couple of knocks). Surviving this I watched @t0daY clipping the tretcherous soil, so was actually happy to not have been those few metres further ahead.

Tucking in behind the top 4 I watched a great show as @Corentin_Bergès , @Puffpirat and @Fe1ixS swapped places several times, allowing me to catch up. Again, not having quite caught up was a benefit when I think @Corentin_Bergès and @Puffpirat came together. coming down the hill to T4 (or is it 5?), allowing me an easy ride into P3. Again, @Fe1ixS and @cpcdem were battling hard ahead and I got a good show as I caught them slowly. @cpcdem seemed to struggle for pace slightly as the race went on, but was defending well, before they eventually came together. Honestly, with one lap left I thought I was passing into first place and the lead, so was really surprised to find that @cpcdem had managed to hold his car and stayed on track. Perhaps if I had been more aggresive and aware he was still in the fight I might have defended the final hairpin. We sprinted to the end and last lap, last corner he defended well. I got a slightly better pull out of the corner and the final finish is really only a metre in it. Great race all told, but oh so close!

Race 2:
Starting from 2nd I got the jump on @cpcdem at"green green green" call. I was concerned that I'd actually jumped the start, but reviewing I think @cpcdem was too cautious off the start. I remember doing the same with my first ever pole.

I held the lead for about 5 laps, but @CatchAGlimpse was in beast-mode behind and never more that half a second behind. Eventually I succumbed in a lack of experience. Really I should have conceded the place at a point of my chosing, instead I ended up having to compromise my line coming down the essses, and ended up bleeding more than one place.

There were a couple more hairy moments in the race, my favourite being the straight before the final hairpin where 2 cars bumped and lost momentum. Having nowhere to go but between them we ended up in an accidental 3 wide. I did take a knock going through the corner, but not really suprising I guess, but we all survived it, something I love about these Clio cars.

Moving from 6th to 4th took another 3 wide moment, very similar to the previous. @Corentin_Bergès and @Elodyr had a bump together at T4. Again with too much speed I took a brave(?) decision to go through the middle of two cars in the middle of power slides. Not guts no glory right? From there I managed to barely hold off @Elodyr as he caught me for the last lap. I'm not sure I would have held on for another! 4th place in the long race was pretty pleasing given the full turnout.

My POV

Awesome fight with you mate, really loved it. Sorry for the bump T4 in R2, was the second time i was doing it, 100% my mistake. Was so close from your rear bumper that i couldn't see shit in front and i had no idea where the apex was. A really messy corner ^^

 

[Corentin_Bergès]

and a @Corentin_Bergès special.

You know i hate you for that video right ?
I've watched your whole first race replay, i look awesome . Well joke aside, i now understand what was completly wrong with this setup especially in the two hairpins, with the brake balance beeing off i was dragging my blocked rear axle in middle corner
And considering me eating the wall, i was too focus on giving you space and didn't pay enough attention You were putting me under too much pressure ^^

 

[cpcdem]

Tucking in behind the top 4 I watched a great show as @Corentin_Bergès , @Puffpirat and @Fe1ixS swapped places several times, allowing me to catch up. Again, not having quite caught up was a benefit when I think @Corentin_Bergès and @Puffpirat came together. coming down the hill to T4 (or is it 5?), allowing me an easy ride into P3. Again, @Fe1ixS and @cpcdem were battling hard ahead and I got a good show as I caught them slowly. @cpcdem seemed to struggle for pace slightly as the race went on, but was defending well, before they eventually came together. Honestly, with one lap left I thought I was passing into first place and the lead, so was really surprised to find that @cpcdem had managed to hold his car and stayed on track. Perhaps if I had been more aggresive and aware he was still in the fight I might have defended the final hairpin. We sprinted to the end and last lap, last corner he defended well. I got a slightly better pull out of the corner and the final finish is really only a metre in it. Great race all told, but oh so close!

Race 2:
Starting from 2nd I got the jump on @cpcdem at"green green green" call. I was concerned that I'd actually jumped the start, but reviewing I think @cpcdem was too cautious off the start. I remember doing the same with my first ever pole.

Yeah, I was being too cautious, wanted to make sure I do not get an unfair advantage and ended up doing the complete opposite . Your own and everybody else's start looked fine to me.

I just watched the end of race 1 with you, wow that was a lot more fierce than I remembered it! Indeed, I was struggling for grip, I think I need to go a lot easier on my brake pressure and bias for the next races. I see my defense was quite aggressive in a couple places, I was so pumped up from my previous incidents that I would not give up the win without giving it all! I tried as much as I could to keep it fair though, I hope it was ok and thanks for a definitely very fair fight from your side. And yeah, this is how races should end, with one meter separating one car to the other! And if it's myself the one ahead, all the better

 

[Taorminator]

I really enjoyed this round - struggled throughout practice so was just aiming for top 10 finishes. Qualifying didn't go well ending up 12th. Made a good start in the first race and made up various positions due to people in front having incidents ending up 3rd overall. Had so much fun battling @Corentin_Bergès throughout the race. Race two I felt much stronger and managed to battle in top 5 throughout the race. Felt I was on pace with PD and Puffy but was they were out of the slipstream they disappeared a few seconds up the road. So many great battles with @Elodyr @UnstopaPaul @Corentin_Bergès in particular

I've uploaded the replay footage from the roof view (so the action can be seen) for both races below and a @Corentin_Bergès special.

R1

R2:

Bonus:

Ahahahahahahahaha are you alright @Corentin_Bergès ?? x) made my day xD

 

[ProjectPD]

Exceptionally I do a litte racereflection as well.

Overall I can say that the Chocolate Rebells more and more begin to understand that the "Clicli" is front weel powered and must be driving different to other (racing) cars. I think the races at sonoma bring us laptime wise quite close to the top.

I don't think I had a winning chance in the fist race, however a good podium finish was possible. Sadly I got punched out by a lagging @Puffpirat in T4. My car had hitted the wall and I drove till the end with an "interesting" steering angle on the straights. To be honest: Because I don't recognise the lagging I was pissed of by the action of @Puffpirat. We both trained driving door handle to door handle a lot in the last season's. Such a hard hit at my side and the fact, he wasn't waiting after the incident, was made me angry. After race 2 I watched the replay and saw puffys car lagging into me. It feels sad punched out of the fight for top positions that way. On the other hand I am very glad to know that puffy isn't such an asswhole I expected during the rest of race 1. Sorry if I wasn't that kind after race 1 @Puffpirat.

Race 2 went more well than I had expected. Starting from P9 doesn't gave my hight expectations for the race. But a good start bring me into the position to fight in the front pack. By overtaking @UnstopaPaul , @t0daY and puffy in just 3 corners I had erned 1 st place. That was very cool. The fact, my team mates do very good results as well makes me even more happy.

For the next races I wish that team Chocolate Rebells are able to annoy the over team of puffy, manu and @CatchAGlimpse a bit and steal them a few championship points

Hopefully puffy will fix his lagging issues and we all can keep on fighting for the Viktory.

May the best chocolate rebell win! (@Nakor and @Elodyr - I mean you as well )

 

[Puffpirat]

Fu what I was lagging ah man Need to check what’s causing it!

I was wondering how we made contact there, normally we would be able to drive the whole lap side by side.

 

[UnstopaPaul]

Fu what I was lagging ah man Need to check what’s causing it!

I was wondering how we made contact there, normally we would be able to drive the whole lap side by side.

yeah - when I watched the reply you basically made an "instant" right-angle turn into PD. Looks pretty weird.